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Post by jimed14 on Jul 28, 2021 14:02:13 GMT -5
Sadly, Mad Max wants to go to fire land so there’s no hope for me ending up in the Sox 2020 rotation. If only we had access to a time machine!
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 28, 2021 15:23:18 GMT -5
Curious what you mean by the catcher being ready for the specific movement. Like it's certainly not that he's hitting the glove with pinpoint accuracy. I just feel like if you know a slider is coming, as long as you know roughly the velo and how it's going to break, as a MLB catcher, you can receive it. It's not like thinking 83 is coming and getting 95. I mean he starts moving towards the final location before the slider breaks. For example, with the sweeping one, the break is significantly different and he starts moving the glove to the landing spot before the actual break, it's not a jerking motion, it's smooth. There's a lot of difference between his sliders. They don't all break the same. I maintain that Houck is controlling the specific movement and that Vazquez knows specifically what that movement will be. We'll know soon enough if that was coincidental to one start or something that becomes a weapon.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 28, 2021 21:13:50 GMT -5
Plaweki seemed to stab more than Vazquez did previously but mostly in the 4th where Houck lost command. The Vlad Jr. double was off a sinker that didn't sink and the past ball was on a slider that didn't slide. He also threw more balls that inning and ran the pitch count up a bit.
There was an Alex Speier tidbit on the screen in the 2nd inning (maybe the third). Of the 13 ABs by lefties that ended with a slider this year, no hits and 11 strikeouts. What so called 3rd pitch for lefties is going to top that ?
Sidenote... At MLB, they are talking about the possibility of Sherzer joining Sale. It should be noted that in his first MLB start, Houck received a nice video from Max wishing him well. They went to the same college. That can't hurt his decision.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 29, 2021 6:46:25 GMT -5
Worth noting Houck three way more sinkers last night then usual. Definitely used a full 3 pitch mix.
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Post by agastonguay13 on Sept 7, 2021 7:36:26 GMT -5
The Red Sox have over 60 million coming of the books next year I could see them signing Max Scherzer to a 2 year contract next year and being part of this rotation. I was hoping Noah Syndergaard would come back strong from TJ. They will spend next year and make a splash maybe they sign Carlos Correa to play 2B instead let Xander Bogaerts walk then move Correa back to SS. I would much rather they spend on pitching in 2022. I absolutely see them going HARD after Scherzer this off-season, especially now that he's been traded and won't cost them a draft pick. I'd easily offer him 3 years $100million. He's older, sure, but that gives you the short term contract you'd want. He's the ultimate gamer, has past success in high pressure situations, etc ... He's on par with a healthy Chris Sale, and costs you nothing but money to bring in. After seeing the success this team is capable of this season when they get solid pitching, and the money coming off the books in the next 2 seasons (Rodriguez after 2021, Eovaldi after 2022) and what you'd hope to be 3 affordable starters locked up in Pivetta, Whitlock, and Seabold, paying Sale and Scherzer $60million/year for 3 years seems doable, especially with their willingness to again surpass the luxury tax threshold and a new CBA upcoming. I could see a 2022 rotation of: Sale Scherzer Eovaldi Pivetta Whitlock Seabold in Whitlock's 2021 role, available to swap should he struggle. Also moves Houck to the bullpen where he'd be more effective.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 7, 2021 9:06:45 GMT -5
The Red Sox have over 60 million coming of the books next year I could see them signing Max Scherzer to a 2 year contract next year and being part of this rotation. I was hoping Noah Syndergaard would come back strong from TJ. They will spend next year and make a splash maybe they sign Carlos Correa to play 2B instead let Xander Bogaerts walk then move Correa back to SS. I would much rather they spend on pitching in 2022. I absolutely see them going HARD after Scherzer this off-season, especially now that he's been traded and won't cost them a draft pick. I'd easily offer him 3 years $100million. He's older, sure, but that gives you the short term contract you'd want. He's the ultimate gamer, has past success in high pressure situations, etc ... He's on par with a healthy Chris Sale, and costs you nothing but money to bring in. After seeing the success this team is capable of this season when they get solid pitching, and the money coming off the books in the next 2 seasons (Rodriguez after 2021, Eovaldi after 2022) and what you'd hope to be 3 affordable starters locked up in Pivetta, Whitlock, and Seabold, paying Sale and Scherzer $60million/year for 3 years seems doable, especially with their willingness to again surpass the luxury tax threshold and a new CBA upcoming. I could see a 2022 rotation of: Sale Scherzer Eovaldi Pivetta Whitlock Seabold in Whitlock's 2021 role, available to swap should he struggle. Also moves Houck to the bullpen where he'd be more effective. I'd be surprised if Bloom threw 100 million over 3 years for a guy who'll be near 40 when the deal is complete. I doubt he ties up that much money in a guy who could really backslide and hamper him for a year or two. He'll spend the money but he'll divvy it up for multiple players instead of throwing it at one guy. I also think the Dodgers will spend the money to keep Scherzer and that he prefers to be on the west coast anyways from what I've read. I think if E-Rod takes a hometown discount they'll bring him back, but if he doesn't, they'll let him walk. I think the 2022 rotation is: Sale Eovaldi Either E-Rod or mid-tier FA signing Whitlock Houck Seabold is the first guy up and he'll replace Richards and Perez with two lower tier guys to replace them, or maybe one will be mid-tier, too - after all Richards did cost $10 million. I still think if JDM stays, they try to re-sign Schwarber and they trade Dalbec for some pitching help, maybe a rotation piece or one of those hybrid arms that Bloom likes to get.
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Post by manfred on Sept 7, 2021 9:33:12 GMT -5
I absolutely see them going HARD after Scherzer this off-season, especially now that he's been traded and won't cost them a draft pick. I'd easily offer him 3 years $100million. He's older, sure, but that gives you the short term contract you'd want. He's the ultimate gamer, has past success in high pressure situations, etc ... He's on par with a healthy Chris Sale, and costs you nothing but money to bring in. After seeing the success this team is capable of this season when they get solid pitching, and the money coming off the books in the next 2 seasons (Rodriguez after 2021, Eovaldi after 2022) and what you'd hope to be 3 affordable starters locked up in Pivetta, Whitlock, and Seabold, paying Sale and Scherzer $60million/year for 3 years seems doable, especially with their willingness to again surpass the luxury tax threshold and a new CBA upcoming. I could see a 2022 rotation of: Sale Scherzer Eovaldi Pivetta Whitlock Seabold in Whitlock's 2021 role, available to swap should he struggle. Also moves Houck to the bullpen where he'd be more effective. I'd be surprised if Bloom threw 100 million over 3 years for a guy who'll be near 40 when the deal is complete. I doubt he ties up that much money in a guy who could really backslide and hamper him for a year or two. He'll spend the money but he'll divvy it up for multiple players instead of throwing it at one guy. I also think the Dodgers will spend the money to keep Scherzer and that he prefers to be on the west coast anyways from what I've read. I think if E-Rod takes a hometown discount they'll bring him back, but if he doesn't, they'll let him walk. I think the 2022 rotation is: Sale Eovaldi Either E-Rod or mid-tier FA signing Whitlock Houck Seabold is the first guy up and he'll replace Richards and Perez with two lower tier guys to replace them, or maybe one will be mid-tier, too - after all Richards did cost $10 million. I still think if JDM stays, they try to re-sign Schwarber and they trade Dalbec for some pitching help, maybe a rotation piece or one of those hybrid arms that Bloom likes to get. What about Pivetta?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 7, 2021 10:03:17 GMT -5
I'd be surprised if Bloom threw 100 million over 3 years for a guy who'll be near 40 when the deal is complete. I doubt he ties up that much money in a guy who could really backslide and hamper him for a year or two. He'll spend the money but he'll divvy it up for multiple players instead of throwing it at one guy. I also think the Dodgers will spend the money to keep Scherzer and that he prefers to be on the west coast anyways from what I've read. I think if E-Rod takes a hometown discount they'll bring him back, but if he doesn't, they'll let him walk. I think the 2022 rotation is: Sale Eovaldi Either E-Rod or mid-tier FA signing Whitlock Houck Seabold is the first guy up and he'll replace Richards and Perez with two lower tier guys to replace them, or maybe one will be mid-tier, too - after all Richards did cost $10 million. I still think if JDM stays, they try to re-sign Schwarber and they trade Dalbec for some pitching help, maybe a rotation piece or one of those hybrid arms that Bloom likes to get. What about Pivetta? Out of sight. Out of mind. lol Yeah, Sale/Eovaldi/Whitlock/Pivetta/Houck. 50-50 on E-Rod. If he's there then Houck starts out in the pen perhaps? If not, then they save the money to use his money on hybrid pitching? I do think they get a starter, a guy they can spend 10 million on like they did Richards. I think they go to about $5 years $70 million on E-Rod, but does he take it? I think he just might. I could be extremely wrong on this.
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Post by agastonguay13 on Sept 7, 2021 10:32:32 GMT -5
I absolutely see them going HARD after Scherzer this off-season, especially now that he's been traded and won't cost them a draft pick. I'd easily offer him 3 years $100million. He's older, sure, but that gives you the short term contract you'd want. He's the ultimate gamer, has past success in high pressure situations, etc ... He's on par with a healthy Chris Sale, and costs you nothing but money to bring in. After seeing the success this team is capable of this season when they get solid pitching, and the money coming off the books in the next 2 seasons (Rodriguez after 2021, Eovaldi after 2022) and what you'd hope to be 3 affordable starters locked up in Pivetta, Whitlock, and Seabold, paying Sale and Scherzer $60million/year for 3 years seems doable, especially with their willingness to again surpass the luxury tax threshold and a new CBA upcoming. I could see a 2022 rotation of: Sale Scherzer Eovaldi Pivetta Whitlock Seabold in Whitlock's 2021 role, available to swap should he struggle. Also moves Houck to the bullpen where he'd be more effective. I'd be surprised if Bloom threw 100 million over 3 years for a guy who'll be near 40 when the deal is complete. I doubt he ties up that much money in a guy who could really backslide and hamper him for a year or two. He'll spend the money but he'll divvy it up for multiple players instead of throwing it at one guy. I also think the Dodgers will spend the money to keep Scherzer and that he prefers to be on the west coast anyways from what I've read. I think if E-Rod takes a hometown discount they'll bring him back, but if he doesn't, they'll let him walk. I think the 2022 rotation is: Sale Eovaldi Either E-Rod or mid-tier FA signing Whitlock Houck Seabold is the first guy up and he'll replace Richards and Perez with two lower tier guys to replace them, or maybe one will be mid-tier, too - after all Richards did cost $10 million. I still think if JDM stays, they try to re-sign Schwarber and they trade Dalbec for some pitching help, maybe a rotation piece or one of those hybrid arms that Bloom likes to get. I disagree. If Scherzer wanted 6 years, then I'd be more of your thinking, but you're going to need big-time starting pitching to make a legitimate run for a world series. The Dodgers model shows us that short term, high dollar contracts are preferred, and while the Bauer signing isn't completely analogous with this proposed scenario, the baseline of pay high end player lots of money for short term years is there. Obviously Bauer wound up being a clusterjam, but I'd be willing to bet that Scherzer isn't an alleged rapist. The reason for their recent frugality has been stated multiple times to be a need to reset the tax threshold. That's been done. It also gives you the ability to hopefully unearth some hidden gems who can produce for you. That's been done as well, and the good thing about it is that it doesn't cost a lot, so you can throw a large amount at one guy and keep looking for reclamation projects. An argument can be made (by me, right now) that their 2022 rotation only needs one guy. As I stated above, a rotation of Sale, Scherzer, Eovaldi, Pivetta, and Whitlock doesn't look awful on paper, and having Seabold and Houck (in that order) to take the 5th slot should Whitlock struggle seems solid as well. Obviously you don't plan to rely on all 3 of them to pitch to their max potential, but you also don't need to plan on all 3 being busts. I don't think they're going to re-sign Rodriguez, simply because I think somebody else is going to offer him a longer term deal than the Red Sox would be willing to give. Giving his, Richards', and Perez's money (approximately $23million) to Scherzer plus 10 million that will be available as well gets you there. So in this working theory Rodriguez, Richards, and Perez's roles are now filled with Scherzer, Houck and Seabold. Houck's role is filled by Whitlock. I'm not as worried about Scherzer falling apart as I was about Sale. He's been relatively healthy through now his age 37 season. And if it does happen, that's why it's a short term deal. It's a risk I'm willing to take. Also, I don't think the Dodgers will bring him back. They have Kershaw as a free agent, and I don't think the fan base would take kindly to them letting him walk. They also have Seager, Bellinger, and Turner getting Arb raises, Turner on a 4th year Arb as well, I believe. Bauer definitely isn't opting out now, either. They'll have some cash available, but not enough I don't think to pay Kershaw, Bauer, and Scherzer each 30+ million, as well as cover Betts' massive deal, the aforementioned Arb raises, and those Arb players' eventual free agent contracts.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 7, 2021 10:53:47 GMT -5
As the guy who feels like he started the "Houck is a RP, albeit a good one" talk, if he's actually going to commit to trying to throw this splitter now, I don't have a problem with giving him a shot at starting to begin next year, albeit competing for a role. I wonder if his lack of success the third time through has maybe made him buy in a bit more to needing the pitch - would be hard to blame him for thinking "hey, I shoved last fall without a splitter, how much do I really need it?", especially given the way they've tried to tweak his arsenal before without a ton of success.
Of course, it would then depend on how the pitch is progressing.
That all said, to me, coming into the season with one rotation spot being for Houck/Whitlock in some combination of one or both is the move. If they both work out, super. But I'd want another horse near the front of the rotation with Sale and Eovaldi, with Pivetta/Houck/Whitlock making up the last two spots, plus Seabold-plus in reserve in Worcester.
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Post by agastonguay13 on Sept 7, 2021 11:33:04 GMT -5
As the guy who feels like he started the "Houck is a RP, albeit a good one" talk, if he's actually going to commit to trying to throw this splitter now, I don't have a problem with giving him a shot at starting to begin next year, albeit competing for a role. I wonder if his lack of success the third time through has maybe made him buy in a bit more to needing the pitch - would be hard to blame him for thinking "hey, I shoved last fall without a splitter, how much do I really need it?", especially given the way they've tried to tweak his arsenal before without a ton of success. Of course, it would then depend on how the pitch is progressing. That all said, to me, coming into the season with one rotation spot being for Houck/Whitlock in some combination of one or both is the move. If they both work out, super. But I'd want another horse near the front of the rotation with Sale and Eovaldi, with Pivetta/Houck/Whitlock making up the last two spots, plus Seabold-plus in reserve in Worcester. My thoughts exactly, summed up much neater than I was able to.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 7, 2021 11:44:26 GMT -5
As the guy who feels like he started the "Houck is a RP, albeit a good one" talk, if he's actually going to commit to trying to throw this splitter now, I don't have a problem with giving him a shot at starting to begin next year, albeit competing for a role. I wonder if his lack of success the third time through has maybe made him buy in a bit more to needing the pitch - would be hard to blame him for thinking "hey, I shoved last fall without a splitter, how much do I really need it?", especially given the way they've tried to tweak his arsenal before without a ton of success. Of course, it would then depend on how the pitch is progressing. That all said, to me, coming into the season with one rotation spot being for Houck/Whitlock in some combination of one or both is the move. If they both work out, super. But I'd want another horse near the front of the rotation with Sale and Eovaldi, with Pivetta/Houck/Whitlock making up the last two spots, plus Seabold-plus in reserve in Worcester. My thoughts exactly, summed up much neater than I was able to. While I'm not convinced they go hard after Scherzer I think your post and Chris's is convincing me they'll go after somebody that they think can be a a #2 or #3 type starter if not an ace like Scherzer. Robbie Ray perhaps?
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Post by vokuhila on Sept 7, 2021 11:47:48 GMT -5
The Giants lose Gausman, DeSclafani and Alex Wood to free agency. The Rockies lose Jon Gray Captain tight pants Robbie Ray will be a FA If you don't mind injury risk Carlos Rodon is available aswell.
But looking at the recent acquisitions the most likely option is Jon Lester ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by agastonguay13 on Sept 7, 2021 13:04:29 GMT -5
The Giants lose Gausman, DeSclafani and Alex Wood to free agency. The Rockies lose Jon Gray Captain tight pants Robbie Ray will be a FA If you don't mind injury risk Carlos Rodon is available aswell. But looking at the recent acquisitions the most likely option is Jon Lester ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Looking at recent additions is doing yourself a disservice. The team's been abundantly clear that their frugality was necessitated by a need to reset the cap, and that they would have no qualms again surpassing it once reset. Surpassing the cap is generally palatable for 3 seasons, before draft penalties come into play (presuming that this system survives unscathed to the next CBA). I don't see Scherzer garnering more than a 3 year deal anyway at 37, going on 38 years old. His money coming off the books going into 2025 would be a huge boon to their efforts to again stay under the cap for a season.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 7, 2021 13:06:44 GMT -5
My thoughts exactly, summed up much neater than I was able to. While I'm not convinced they go hard after Scherzer I think your post and Chris's is convincing me they'll go after somebody that they think can be a a #2 or #3 type starter if not an ace like Scherzer. Robbie Ray perhaps? Ray is going to get paid. He's probably the frontrunner for the Cy Young. The Giants lose Gausman, DeSclafani and Alex Wood to free agency. The Rockies lose Jon Gray Captain tight pants Robbie Ray will be a FA If you don't mind injury risk Carlos Rodon is available aswell. But looking at the recent acquisitions the most likely option is Jon Lester ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There's no reason to think the last point. Bloom's MO this past offseason was clearly not to lock them into something beyond this year or maybe next just for the sake of making a splash. Next year, with a pretty good FA SP class and a clear need at the top for SOMEONE given that an ERod extension hasn't happened, I'd be extremely surprised if they didn't get a top-3 starter type.
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Post by vokuhila on Sept 7, 2021 13:29:00 GMT -5
It was supposed to be a joke...
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Post by greatscottcooper on Sept 7, 2021 14:31:11 GMT -5
It was supposed to be a joke... It's 2021, anything you say or do on the internet can reasonably be assumed to be a serious point no matter how hyperbolic or dumb it may seem. I'am speaking from a position of personal knowledge because I say all types of dumb nonesense all day long, unless of course anyone agrees with me, in which case I'm totally being serious.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Sept 7, 2021 14:34:34 GMT -5
If we sign Erod, the rotation generally seems set with depth options as well. Sale/Erod/Eovaldi/Pivetta/Whitlock. Houck/Richards/Seabold.
Makes me wonder if a trade is in place. I'm happy with all those options but wouldn't complain if they traded away a Pivetta and sweetened the pot in an attempt to bring in an ACE. Having an Ace at the top who can sit with Sale as the 1a and 1b guy gives us a world series caliber starting rotation next year.
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Post by vokuhila on Sept 7, 2021 14:55:23 GMT -5
Sure another "ace" would be nice, but like you said, with one addition the rotation is kind of set and in a good state.
The bullpen however will be in shambles. Appearance leader, setup and high leverage man Ottavino will be gone, at least one of Houch/Whitlock will probably start. Taylor and Barnes are good, the rest is questionmarks.
@chris Hatfield by top3 do you mean top3 rotation type, or one of the top 3 FA available?
Ranking would look something like this probably: Ray, Gausman, DeSclafani, ERod, Gray, Wood
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Post by wcsoxfan on Sept 7, 2021 14:57:46 GMT -5
If we sign Erod, the rotation generally seems set with depth options as well. Sale/Erod/Eovaldi/Pivetta/Whitlock. Houck/Richards/Seabold. Makes me wonder if a trade is in place. I'm happy with all those options but wouldn't complain if they traded away a Pivetta and sweetened the pot in an attempt to bring in an ACE. Having an Ace at the top who can sit with Sale as the 1a and 1b guy gives us a world series caliber starting rotation next year. Richard's has a club option at 10mil (1.5mil buyout) - unless he really crushes it in relief for the final month, I don't think he will be back.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Sept 7, 2021 15:01:10 GMT -5
If we sign Erod, the rotation generally seems set with depth options as well. Sale/Erod/Eovaldi/Pivetta/Whitlock. Houck/Richards/Seabold. Makes me wonder if a trade is in place. I'm happy with all those options but wouldn't complain if they traded away a Pivetta and sweetened the pot in an attempt to bring in an ACE. Having an Ace at the top who can sit with Sale as the 1a and 1b guy gives us a world series caliber starting rotation next year. Richard's has a club option at 10mil (1.5mil buyout) - unless he really crushes it in relief for the final month, I don't think he will be back. If he pitches how he has recently, I think it's a legit option. Next year is the year you plan on going over and it's a one year deal so it's not like you're overpaying with years that will screw you when you need to get under the cap. He replaces the role Whitlock provided and may even be the type of guy who can slip into the 8th/9th inning at some point. We need bullpen help, and if he looks lights out in that role and is ready to move on from starting I think it's a win/win.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 7, 2021 15:07:43 GMT -5
Sure another "ace" would be nice, but like you said, with one addition the rotation is kind of set and in a good state. The bullpen however will be in shambles. Appearance leader, setup and high leverage man Ottavino will be gone, at least one of Houch/Whitlock will probably start. Taylor and Barnes are good, the rest is questionmarks. @chris Hatfield by top3 do you mean top3 rotation type, or one of the top 3 FA available? Ranking would look something like this probably: Ray, Gausman, DeSclafani, ERod, Gray, Wood Top 3 in the rotation.
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Post by agastonguay13 on Sept 7, 2021 15:08:08 GMT -5
Sure another "ace" would be nice, but like you said, with one addition the rotation is kind of set and in a good state. The bullpen however will be in shambles. Appearance leader, setup and high leverage man Ottavino will be gone, at least one of Houch/Whitlock will probably start. Taylor and Barnes are good, the rest is questionmarks. @chris Hatfield by top3 do you mean top3 rotation type, or one of the top 3 FA available? Ranking would look something like this probably: Ray, Gausman, DeSclafani, ERod, Gray, Wood I mean, you just signed Barnes for 9.38million per year, so it's unlikely you're going to go and get anybody who will cost more than him. You have Taylor and Darwinzon Hernandez coming back for around what? $650k each, Sawamura for 1.2million, Houck at like $600k, Brasier on Arb for like 2.5mil I'd guess and Davis for $600k. That leaves 2 bullpen spots to fill, 3 if you don't want Davis. Average of $7millon per signee costs you 14-21million if filled all through free agency. There will likely be trades made from organizational depth to address one or two of those spots, so I'm not crazy worried about filling out the bullpen. Not to mention adding another horse in Scherzer will only help the bullpen.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Sept 7, 2021 15:09:11 GMT -5
Sure another "ace" would be nice, but like you said, with one addition the rotation is kind of set and in a good state. The bullpen however will be in shambles. Appearance leader, setup and high leverage man Ottavino will be gone, at least one of Houch/Whitlock will probably start. Taylor and Barnes are good, the rest is questionmarks. @chris Hatfield by top3 do you mean top3 rotation type, or one of the top 3 FA available? Ranking would look something like this probably: Ray, Gausman, DeSclafani, ERod, Gray, Wood Ray gets lots of strikeouts and Gausman has been a solid pitcher for a while - but both are having career years at 30. I don't trust that. The others are mid-rotation guys at this point - ERod is better and younger. I'd like to throw-in Rodon and Syndergaard. Rodon and ERod are both 28, so the youngest of the group. Noah goes to the top if he proves to be healthy.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Sept 7, 2021 15:15:29 GMT -5
Richard's has a club option at 10mil (1.5mil buyout) - unless he really crushes it in relief for the final month, I don't think he will be back. If he pitches how he has recently, I think it's a legit option. Next year is the year you plan on going over and it's a one year deal so it's not like you're overpaying with years that will screw you when you need to get under the cap. He replaces the role Whitlock provided and may even be the type of guy who can slip into the 8th/9th inning at some point. We need bullpen help, and if he looks lights out in that role and is ready to move on from starting I think it's a win/win. I like the fit - just not the cost. If he's going to make 8.5mil then he would have to prove to be a legit setup-man or better. It's possible that happens, but there will be other very good relievers available for that much money. So far he has given up 11 hits and 4 walks over 15.2 innings (with 19 strikeouts). If he can keep up that pace while becoming the setup-man/closer for the rest of the year, then I'd get on board. More to prove for now.
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