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4/29-5/1 Red Sox @ Orioles Series Thread
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 1, 2022 19:38:27 GMT -5
I still don't blame Bloom and the FO. After the trade deadline of last year, who thought Rizzo > Dalbec? I was the biggest Rizzo guy and I conceded the loss. The FO gambled on Dalbec at least being a .750 OPS guy. I don't know what he'll have to hit for the season to get there, but it's certainly higher than .750. Did anyone expect a .449 OPS and a -0.6 WAR through 20 games? I didn't believe in the 2nd half, but thought he was an OK stopgap to Casas and eventually move on from. Crazy to think some had him as potential Devers insurance. His future looks more grim by the day, but I don't fault the FO for that decision.
Christian Arroyo they should not have bought the hype on him. He had one good season in limited action. Vazquez hasn't hit since they fixed the baseballs, but catchers don't hit anyways. The team isn't missing Renfroe or Schwarber either. Benny is turning into a bad trade, but he's been incredibly lucky this year, Chavis too.
The pitching has been fine. It's just micro analyzed because when this team scores 3 runs, it's considered an offensive explosion.
Honestly, if they don't turn it around then this team being terrible early is great news. Rather a year of abysmal baseball, trade Xander, JDM, Hill, Wacha, Eovaldi, and whomever else if you don't intend to retain and get the next Marcelo Mayer in the draft. Not that the Red Sox ever do this, but they could get Xander or Eovaldi back in FA or they can sign Carlos Correa. Trevor Story's .596 OPS is very disappointing and don't want to shift him to SS and then have a hole at 2B as well. Not that Correa's .633 is much better. It's a crazy concept to keep a guy with a .919, I know. Not advocating trading him. I am advocating doing so if the team doesn't believe they will sign him.
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Post by lostinnewjersey on May 1, 2022 19:50:03 GMT -5
It seems that the whole plan was to replace Renfroe with Suzuki, with Bradley as the fourth outfielder who could come in to preserve a late lead by shoring up the outfield defense. When Suzuki went to the Cubs, it was too late to do anything else. And now I wonder if Bloom is thinking, "We aren't going to contend this year, but I can reload for the future by trading several highly valued assets, just as the 2016 Yankees did." So he's just waiting for the right moment to do that. But don't wait too long, Chaim -- if Bogaerts or Eovaldi gets hurt, you've squandered this beautiful opportunity of a lost season.
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Post by incandenza on May 1, 2022 20:01:34 GMT -5
It seems that the whole plan was to replace Renfroe with Suzuki, with Bradley as the fourth outfielder who could come in to preserve a late lead by shoring up the outfield defense. When Suzuki went to the Cubs, it was too late to do anything else. And now I wonder if Bloom is thinking, " We aren't going to contend this year, but I can reload for the future by trading several highly valued assets, just as the 2016 Yankees did." So he's just waiting for the right moment to do that. But don't wait too long, Chaim -- if Bogaerts or Eovaldi gets hurt, you've squandered this beautiful opportunity of a lost season. I guarantee you Bloom has not given up on the team after 23 games.
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Post by julyanmorley on May 1, 2022 20:03:39 GMT -5
35.8% playoffs now
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 1, 2022 20:32:00 GMT -5
I still don't blame Bloom and the FO. After the trade deadline of last year, who thought Rizzo > Dalbec? I was the biggest Rizzo guy and I conceded the loss. The FO gambled on Dalbec at least being a .750 OPS guy. I don't know what he'll have to hit for the season to get there, but it's certainly higher than .750. Did anyone expect a .449 OPS and a -0.6 WAR through 20 games? I didn't believe in the 2nd half, but thought he was an OK stopgap to Casas and eventually move on from. Crazy to think some had him as potential Devers insurance. His future looks more grim by the day, but I don't fault the FO for that decision. Honestly, if they don't turn it around then this team being terrible early is great news. Rather a year of abysmal baseball, trade Xander, JDM, Hill, Wacha, Eovaldi, and whomever else if you don't intend to retain and get the next Marcelo Mayer in the draft. Not that the Red Sox ever do this, but they could get Xander or Eovaldi back in FA or they can sign Carlos Correa. Trevor Story's .596 OPS is very disappointing and don't want to shift him to SS and then have a hole at 2B as well. Not that Correa's .633 is much better. It's a crazy concept to keep a guy with a .919, I know. Not advocating trading him. I am advocating doing so if the team doesn't believe they will sign him. I disagree with the first paragraph here but agree strongly with the second. If the team is lousy, CB and the FO deserve blame. They make the personnel and payroll decisions. They're accountable for them. Ditto when things go well. I am definitely in favor of a fire sale if things continue to go south. A crap season, if properly managed, can be great in the long run. The two best examples for me are 1997 and 2012. In '97 Duquette traded Mike Stanley for Tony Armas Jr. and then used TAJ in the trade for Pedro. Then he swindled a panicked Seattle org into taking on the horror show known as Heathcliff Slocomb for Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek. In 2012, they unloaded those big contracts, giving them a second chance at roster construction going into 2013. If the suckage continues, I want to see CB be bold and get as much firepower as he can for the farm. I'm talking quality, not multiple pieces of cheese like he got for Beni.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 1, 2022 20:36:57 GMT -5
It seems that the whole plan was to replace Renfroe with Suzuki, with Bradley as the fourth outfielder who could come in to preserve a late lead by shoring up the outfield defense. When Suzuki went to the Cubs, it was too late to do anything else. And now I wonder if Bloom is thinking, " We aren't going to contend this year, but I can reload for the future by trading several highly valued assets, just as the 2016 Yankees did." So he's just waiting for the right moment to do that. But don't wait too long, Chaim -- if Bogaerts or Eovaldi gets hurt, you've squandered this beautiful opportunity of a lost season. I guarantee you Bloom has not given up on the team after 23 games. Are you saying that you don't think he watches the games?
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 1, 2022 20:42:22 GMT -5
I still don't blame Bloom and the FO. After the trade deadline of last year, who thought Rizzo > Dalbec? I was the biggest Rizzo guy and I conceded the loss. The FO gambled on Dalbec at least being a .750 OPS guy. I don't know what he'll have to hit for the season to get there, but it's certainly higher than .750. Did anyone expect a .449 OPS and a -0.6 WAR through 20 games? I didn't believe in the 2nd half, but thought he was an OK stopgap to Casas and eventually move on from. Crazy to think some had him as potential Devers insurance. His future looks more grim by the day, but I don't fault the FO for that decision. Honestly, if they don't turn it around then this team being terrible early is great news. Rather a year of abysmal baseball, trade Xander, JDM, Hill, Wacha, Eovaldi, and whomever else if you don't intend to retain and get the next Marcelo Mayer in the draft. Not that the Red Sox ever do this, but they could get Xander or Eovaldi back in FA or they can sign Carlos Correa. Trevor Story's .596 OPS is very disappointing and don't want to shift him to SS and then have a hole at 2B as well. Not that Correa's .633 is much better. It's a crazy concept to keep a guy with a .919, I know. Not advocating trading him. I am advocating doing so if the team doesn't believe they will sign him. I disagree with the first paragraph here but agree strongly with the second. If the team is lousy, CB and the FO deserve blame. They make the personnel and payroll decisions. They're accountable for them. Ditto when things go well. I am definitely in favor of a fire sale if things continue to go south. A crap season, if properly managed, can be great in the long run. The two best examples for me are 1997 and 2012. In '97 Duquette traded Mike Stanley for Tony Armas Jr. and then used TAJ in the trade for Pedro. Then he swindled a panicked Seattle org into taking on the horror show known as Heathcliff Slocomb for Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek. In 2012, they unloaded those big contracts, giving them a second chance at roster construction going into 2013. If the suckage continues, I want to see CB be bold and get as much firepower as he can for the farm. I'm talking quality, not multiple pieces of cheese like he got for Beni. I mean, it's fair that at the end of the day, roster construction is his job; however, Devers, Verdugo, Story,Kiké are underperforming. Dalbec, JBJ, Arroyo, Vazquez are far worse than anyone imagined. The only ones hitting are JDM and Xander. Xander is the only guy exceeding expectations. Everyone else is below to atrocious. I don't know how much you can blame the FO unless they should have expected the worst case scenario for everyone. But, if this team were 14-9 everyone would laud Bloom. I really hope they don't pull another 2020 and don't trade anyone in the hopes of some stupid hope of making the playoffs when it's clear the team is fatally flawed.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on May 1, 2022 21:26:24 GMT -5
I really think it's too early to make assessments on individual players (with exceptions like Shaw being obviously cooked and Barnes and Brasier being clearly not right). Does anyone really think that the team will rock a .609 OPS all season? A bunch of guys have started slow, which is mostly bad luck, IMO.
The bullpen is clearly a work in progress. Last year the team sorted through Matt Andriese, Austin Brice, Brandon Brennan, Yacksel Rios, and the corpses of Colten Brewer and Brandon Workman in the first half of the season. You've got to turn over a lot of rocks before you find a nugget like Whitlock. There's a lot more bullpen spaghetti in Worcester, not to mention starters like Seabold and most of the Portland rotation who could play important roles in the second half.
Will it matter by the time the second half arrives? It should if the hitters start to play like the backs of their baseball cards say the should. When that happens, I won't be surprised to see an eight or ten game winning streak get them back into the thick of things. There have been some pretty brutal losses in this young season but each only counted once in the standings. LFG.
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on May 1, 2022 21:51:25 GMT -5
Bloom's biggest area of blame has to go to his choice to basically sit on his hands for the entire Hot Stove/Off-season.
I know there was the lockout, blah blah blah, and they signed Story to keep the fan base from an all out revolt. Then he tried to play it off like Story was who they wanted all along.
Chaim needs to hybridize his approach more, sure go with the signing of bargains around the margins, they can make a GM look smart. Although even the margins are shitty now...... ..... But these are the Boston Red Sox, not Tampa or Cleveland or Kansas City, this team is a cash monster, perhaps the biggest outside of the NEw York teams and maybe L.A.
They don't need to do all there shopping in the Thrift Store. Top tier talent NEEDS to be acquired each and every off-season. Then use your Tampa Rays creativity and shrewdness to fill out the roster.
I'm not saying waste money, but this team was woefully unprepared to start the season.
Can they turn it around? Absolutely, will they? I don't know. On top of the holes in talent, these guys just don't have any fire. Now winning can build that, but these guys are veterans, stop looking like your punching the clock, waiting to get paid.
Call up Casas, let him take most of the ABs from Dalbec, sometimes a rookie can spark a slumping team. Remember when Chavis first came up?
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Post by gunboat82 on May 1, 2022 22:01:28 GMT -5
I disagree with the first paragraph here but agree strongly with the second. If the team is lousy, CB and the FO deserve blame. They make the personnel and payroll decisions. They're accountable for them. Ditto when things go well. I am definitely in favor of a fire sale if things continue to go south. A crap season, if properly managed, can be great in the long run. The two best examples for me are 1997 and 2012. In '97 Duquette traded Mike Stanley for Tony Armas Jr. and then used TAJ in the trade for Pedro. Then he swindled a panicked Seattle org into taking on the horror show known as Heathcliff Slocomb for Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek. In 2012, they unloaded those big contracts, giving them a second chance at roster construction going into 2013. If the suckage continues, I want to see CB be bold and get as much firepower as he can for the farm. I'm talking quality, not multiple pieces of cheese like he got for Beni. I mean, it's fair that at the end of the day, roster construction is his job; however, Devers, Verdugo, Story,Kiké are underperforming. Dalbec, JBJ, Arroyo, Vazquez are far worse than anyone imagined. The only ones hitting are JDM and Xander. Xander is the only guy exceeding expectations. Everyone else is below to atrocious. I don't know how much you can blame the FO unless they should have expected the worst case scenario for everyone. But, if this team were 14-9 everyone would laud Bloom. I really hope they don't pull another 2020 and don't trade anyone in the hopes of some stupid hope of making the playoffs when it's clear the team is fatally flawed. I'd quibble with the bolded part. Arroyo aside, I think what Dalbec, JBJ, and Vazquez are currently doing at the plate was comfortably within the imaginable realm. JBJ collected over 450 plate appearances last year and had an OPS under .500. I was surprised when the Red Sox went into the season with JBJ as a starter. I assumed he was nothing more than a contract that the Red Sox were required to absorb to buy a couple prospects. I was wrong. The team is committed to watching toast burn. I wasn't surprised that Dalbec got the starting job this year. He had a blistering August and a very good second half overall. But he also continued to strike out at a high clip and was a disaster in April, May, and July. He was shielded from facing hard-throwing RHP at times, and he went 0 for 12 with 5 Ks in the postseason. What he's doing right now is certainly not far worse than I could have imagined, because I watched him do it for the entire month of July last year, and then I watched his relapse in the playoffs. Vazquez is what he is. A guy who caught lightning in a bottle in 2019 and 2020, sandwiched between a .540 OPS and a .659 OPS. I would have expected him to land somewhere north of .540 and south of .659, but I wouldn't say he's far worse than I imagined. He has only slightly underperformed my imagination's center. If Vazquez, JBJ, and Dalbec are consistently in the same starting lineup, then it's fair to question the roster construction. Even if the other six starters did what they were supposed to do, it wouldn't shock me that those three were well below replacement level.
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Post by notstarboard on May 1, 2022 22:46:10 GMT -5
So legit question: If this is how Bloom spends $236M coming off an over-achieving winning year where your team almost won the World Series and a ‘closing window” year where you’re going to likely lose JD, Xander, Eovaldi, Kiké and Vazquez (an MLB average catcher), i s he the guy who you want with $100M-$130M of play money next year in the AL East? And if so, what has he done to earn such trust in your mind? if you asking me personally, no. I don't think he is. He is young, first time GM. He deserves an opportunity to perfect his trade. He has to think differently than he has previously, IMO. There has to be a willingness to overpay. Too much movement in the margins. I have heard all the points about his restrictions, some legit, but he has had the conn for 3 years. He has to learn to accept unreasonable risk.Could just be semantics but I don't follow this criticism. Do you truly mean what you're saying or do you just wish that Bloom was less risk-averse? Do you want a true overpay, or are you just assuming that market value is an overpay ("someone's gonna overpay"), so you need to overpay to acquire top talent?
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Post by redsox43 on May 1, 2022 23:23:35 GMT -5
I still don't blame Bloom and the FO. After the trade deadline of last year, who thought Rizzo > Dalbec? I was the biggest Rizzo guy and I conceded the loss. The FO gambled on Dalbec at least being a .750 OPS guy. I don't know what he'll have to hit for the season to get there, but it's certainly higher than .750. Did anyone expect a .449 OPS and a -0.6 WAR through 20 games? I didn't believe in the 2nd half, but thought he was an OK stopgap to Casas and eventually move on from. Crazy to think some had him as potential Devers insurance. His future looks more grim by the day, but I don't fault the FO for that decision. Christian Arroyo they should not have bought the hype on him. He had one good season in limited action. Vazquez hasn't hit since they fixed the baseballs, but catchers don't hit anyways. The team isn't missing Renfroe or Schwarber either. Benny is turning into a bad trade, but he's been incredibly lucky this year, Chavis too. The pitching has been fine. It's just micro analyzed because when this team scores 3 runs, it's considered an offensive explosion. Honestly, if they don't turn it around then this team being terrible early is great news. Rather a year of abysmal baseball, trade Xander, JDM, Hill, Wacha, Eovaldi, and whomever else if you don't intend to retain and get the next Marcelo Mayer in the draft. Not that the Red Sox ever do this, but they could get Xander or Eovaldi back in FA or they can sign Carlos Correa. Trevor Story's .596 OPS is very disappointing and don't want to shift him to SS and then have a hole at 2B as well. Not that Correa's .633 is much better. It's a crazy concept to keep a guy with a .919, I know. Not advocating trading him. I am advocating doing so if the team doesn't believe they will sign him. With Xander, the Sox will tread cautionaly. The Sox made the same mistake trading Lester for less than he's worth re-signing at the trade deadline (2014). They traded Lester thinking they'd get more trade deadline, but in the end, the sentimentality was worth more. (Lester valued staying if he could remain a Sox for his entire career). I'm going with gut feeling that almost 30 year old Xander has the same sentiment feelings now on his almost 14 years with the organization.
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Post by redsox43 on May 1, 2022 23:27:17 GMT -5
I still don't blame Bloom and the FO. After the trade deadline of last year, who thought Rizzo > Dalbec? I was the biggest Rizzo guy and I conceded the loss. The FO gambled on Dalbec at least being a .750 OPS guy. I don't know what he'll have to hit for the season to get there, but it's certainly higher than .750. Did anyone expect a .449 OPS and a -0.6 WAR through 20 games? I didn't believe in the 2nd half, but thought he was an OK stopgap to Casas and eventually move on from. Crazy to think some had him as potential Devers insurance. His future looks more grim by the day, but I don't fault the FO for that decision. Christian Arroyo they should not have bought the hype on him. He had one good season in limited action. Vazquez hasn't hit since they fixed the baseballs, but catchers don't hit anyways. The team isn't missing Renfroe or Schwarber either. Benny is turning into a bad trade, but he's been incredibly lucky this year, Chavis too. The pitching has been fine. It's just micro analyzed because when this team scores 3 runs, it's considered an offensive explosion. Honestly, if they don't turn it around then this team being terrible early is great news. Rather a year of abysmal baseball, trade Xander, JDM, Hill, Wacha, Eovaldi, and whomever else if you don't intend to retain and get the next Marcelo Mayer in the draft. Not that the Red Sox ever do this, but they could get Xander or Eovaldi back in FA or they can sign Carlos Correa. Trevor Story's .596 OPS is very disappointing and don't want to shift him to SS and then have a hole at 2B as well. Not that Correa's .633 is much better. It's a crazy concept to keep a guy with a .919, I know. Not advocating trading him. I am advocating doing so if the team doesn't believe they will sign him. With Xander, the Sox will tread cautionaly. The Sox made the same mistake trading Lester for less than he's worth re-signing at the trade deadline (2014). They traded Lester thinking they'd get more trade deadline, but in the end, the sentimentality was worth more. (Lester valued staying if he could remain a Sox for his entire career). I'm going with gut feeling that almost 30 year old Xander has the same sentiment feelings now on his almost 14 years with the organization. Devers is showing mercernary approach, like Mookie (thinks can change with dollars). Sox should be sellers. They can't beat the Orioles on the road. A boom or bust team is actually a fortune thing in the long run. Ownership has always adjusted accordingly, so I think they will adjust accordingly now. Sell Eovaldi for as much as price as gold. Do it right now (I hope Bloom listens to the sell high crowd in this case).
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Post by redsox43 on May 1, 2022 23:34:06 GMT -5
I still don't blame Bloom and the FO. After the trade deadline of last year, who thought Rizzo > Dalbec? I was the biggest Rizzo guy and I conceded the loss. The FO gambled on Dalbec at least being a .750 OPS guy. I don't know what he'll have to hit for the season to get there, but it's certainly higher than .750. Did anyone expect a .449 OPS and a -0.6 WAR through 20 games? I didn't believe in the 2nd half, but thought he was an OK stopgap to Casas and eventually move on from. Crazy to think some had him as potential Devers insurance. His future looks more grim by the day, but I don't fault the FO for that decision. Christian Arroyo they should not have bought the hype on him. He had one good season in limited action. Vazquez hasn't hit since they fixed the baseballs, but catchers don't hit anyways. The team isn't missing Renfroe or Schwarber either. Benny is turning into a bad trade, but he's been incredibly lucky this year, Chavis too. The pitching has been fine. It's just micro analyzed because when this team scores 3 runs, it's considered an offensive explosion. Honestly, if they don't turn it around then this team being terrible early is great news. Rather a year of abysmal baseball, trade Xander, JDM, Hill, Wacha, Eovaldi, and whomever else if you don't intend to retain and get the next Marcelo Mayer in the draft. Not that the Red Sox ever do this, but they could get Xander or Eovaldi back in FA or they can sign Carlos Correa. Trevor Story's .596 OPS is very disappointing and don't want to shift him to SS and then have a hole at 2B as well. Not that Correa's .633 is much better. It's a crazy concept to keep a guy with a .919, I know. Not advocating trading him. I am advocating doing so if the team doesn't believe they will sign him. With Xander, the Sox will tread cautionaly. The Sox made the same mistake trading Lester for less than he's worth re-signing at the trade deadline (2014). They traded Lester thinking they'd get more trade deadline, but in the end, the sentimentality was worth more. (Lester valued staying if he could remain a Sox for his entire career). I'm going with gut feeling that almost 30 year old Xander has the same sentiment feelings now on his almost 14 years with the organization. I could be wrong and Xander might value money more. No way of knowing. Scott Boras makes things interesting to say the least. No trade clause is difficult to deal with. Xander's call in the end with deals until he's a free agent.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on May 2, 2022 4:37:34 GMT -5
if you asking me personally, no. I don't think he is. He is young, first time GM. He deserves an opportunity to perfect his trade. He has to think differently than he has previously, IMO. There has to be a willingness to overpay. Too much movement in the margins. I have heard all the points about his restrictions, some legit, but he has had the conn for 3 years. He has to learn to accept unreasonable risk.Could just be semantics but I don't follow this criticism. Do you truly mean what you're saying or do you just wish that Bloom was less risk-averse? Do you want a true overpay, or are you just assuming that market value is an overpay ("someone's gonna overpay"), so you need to overpay to acquire top talent? There is always nuance with this stuff, but I would start with the basic premise that as long as there is competition amongst 2 or more teams for a player, the market value is what that player signed for. Not sure if agents are allowed to divulge teams offers to other teams, but I would guess they all kind are within each other offers. To me an unreasonable risk is going above that which he might view as the players market in such a fashion that it is noticeable to him and others. If he is strictly going on internal valuation, he won't take unreasonable risk. A good example would be the Price contract. DD obviously took an unreasonable risk. He basically outbid every other team to the point where the player had to take the money. It was a bad contract, but we got a great ALCS and WS performance for it and some prospects. The Scherzer contract this year. That would be an unreasonable risk to me. Heck. I might even characterize the Wander Franco contract as unreasonable risk. There is a lot that can go wrong signing such a young player for so much money, despite that he is such a fantastic player. Caveat....within TB market and finances. I don't think you can view his tenure up to this point as anything but risk adverse, so it would follow that he hasn't taken on unreasonable risk. Can you name 1 transaction that he has done in 3 years that would fit this definition ? Do you think he is the kind of GM that would ever consider even a basic overpay ?
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Post by orion09 on May 2, 2022 5:46:47 GMT -5
Could just be semantics but I don't follow this criticism. Do you truly mean what you're saying or do you just wish that Bloom was less risk-averse? Do you want a true overpay, or are you just assuming that market value is an overpay ("someone's gonna overpay"), so you need to overpay to acquire top talent? There is always nuance with this stuff, but I would start with the basic premise that as long as there is competition amongst 2 or more teams for a player, the market value is what that player signed for. Not sure if agents are allowed to divulge teams offers to other teams, but I would guess they all kind are within each other offers. To me an unreasonable risk is going above that which he might view as the players market in such a fashion that it is noticeable to him and others. If he is strictly going on internal valuation, he won't take unreasonable risk. A good example would be the Price contract. DD obviously took an unreasonable risk. He basically outbid every other team to the point where the player had to take the money. It was a bad contract, but we got a great ALCS and WS performance for it and some prospects. The Scherzer contract this year. That would be an unreasonable risk to me. Heck. I might even characterize the Wander Franco contract as unreasonable risk. There is a lot that can go wrong signing such a young player for so much money, despite that he is such a fantastic player. Caveat....within TB market and finances. I don't think you can view his tenure up to this point as anything but risk adverse, so it would follow that he hasn't taken on unreasonable risk. Can you name 1 transaction that he has done in 3 years that would fit this definition ? Do you think he is the kind of GM that would ever consider even a basic overpay ? Agree with all this, so far he’s been pretty strict with his process and unwilling to go beyond “value principles” to get his guy. But I’m not sure strict value principles are enough to win. That’s how you build a team with a strong foundation, maybe even get into Rays/Dodgers territory. But IMO there’s also an “X factor,” where you have to be willing to look at your roster holistically and do what it takes to put it over the top, whether it adheres to your strict dollar/WAR valuations or not. Having the ability to run $200M payrolls is a huge competitive advantage. You need to figure how to max out that utility, which might mean overpaying, rather than limiting yourself to spending a portion of that as efficiently as possible. Signing Devers is a good example. Yes, it might be an overpay in strict terms - but if not him, who are you going to pay?
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Post by orion09 on May 2, 2022 5:52:28 GMT -5
I would add, I’m still in “wait and see” mode because I’m not sure Bloom has yet shaped the core of the roster to where he wants it - in other words, to the point where he’d be willing to take those “unreasonable risks” and put us over the top.
The trouble is -our current core is about to leave (Xander, Devers, Kiké, Eovaldi) -no one other than Casas is really knocking on the door -the next few FA classes are pretty uninspiring
So, if we’re planning to fully utilize our $200M budget, either we push more chips in this year (IE, don’t use JBJ as a starting outfielder), or do a quick teardown, which means that next run is probably 2-5 years away.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on May 2, 2022 6:31:51 GMT -5
I would add, I’m still in “wait and see” mode because I’m not sure Bloom has yet shaped the core of the roster to where he wants it - in other words, to the point where he’d be willing to take those “unreasonable risks” and put us over the top. The trouble is -our current core is about to leave (Xander, Devers, Kiké, Eovaldi) -no one other than Casas is really knocking on the door -the next few FA classes are pretty uninspiring So, if we’re planning to fully utilize our $200M budget, either we push more chips in this year (IE, don’t use JBJ as a starting outfielder), or do a quick teardown, which means that next run is probably 2-5 years away. The focus was always on 2024. The reason why Story was signed was to save money at Shortstop and use it somewhere else. Either you trade Xander for prospects or let him walk. Same with Devers. The top prospects are going to need to perform as they progress through the system. This is becoming a big distraction to the team it seems.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 2, 2022 7:06:04 GMT -5
Bloom's biggest area of blame has to go to his choice to basically sit on his hands for the entire Hot Stove/Off-season. I know there was the lockout, blah blah blah, and they signed Story to keep the fan base from an all out revolt. Then he tried to play it off like Story was who they wanted all along. Chaim needs to hybridize his approach more, sure go with the signing of bargains around the margins, they can make a GM look smart. Although even the margins are shitty now...... ..... But these are the Boston Red Sox, not Tampa or Cleveland or Kansas City, this team is a cash monster, perhaps the biggest outside of the NEw York teams and maybe L.A. They don't need to do all there shopping in the Thrift Store. Top tier talent NEEDS to be acquired each and every off-season. Then use your Tampa Rays creativity and shrewdness to fill out the roster. I'm not saying waste money, but this team was woefully unprepared to start the season. Can they turn it around? Absolutely, will they? I don't know. On top of the holes in talent, these guys just don't have any fire. Now winning can build that, but these guys are veterans, stop looking like your punching the clock, waiting to get paid. Call up Casas, let him take most of the ABs from Dalbec, sometimes a rookie can spark a slumping team. Remember when Chavis first came up? So your theory is that this team has been super passive in trying to acquire established talent and yet at the same time they are throwing $160 million at a guy they didn’t really want?
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Post by notstarboard on May 2, 2022 7:32:46 GMT -5
Could just be semantics but I don't follow this criticism. Do you truly mean what you're saying or do you just wish that Bloom was less risk-averse? Do you want a true overpay, or are you just assuming that market value is an overpay ("someone's gonna overpay"), so you need to overpay to acquire top talent? There is always nuance with this stuff, but I would start with the basic premise that as long as there is competition amongst 2 or more teams for a player, the market value is what that player signed for. Not sure if agents are allowed to divulge teams offers to other teams, but I would guess they all kind are within each other offers. To me an unreasonable risk is going above that which he might view as the players market in such a fashion that it is noticeable to him and others. If he is strictly going on internal valuation, he won't take unreasonable risk. A good example would be the Price contract. DD obviously took an unreasonable risk. He basically outbid every other team to the point where the player had to take the money. It was a bad contract, but we got a great ALCS and WS performance for it and some prospects. The Scherzer contract this year. That would be an unreasonable risk to me. Heck. I might even characterize the Wander Franco contract as unreasonable risk. There is a lot that can go wrong signing such a young player for so much money, despite that he is such a fantastic player. Caveat....within TB market and finances. I don't think you can view his tenure up to this point as anything but risk adverse, so it would follow that he hasn't taken on unreasonable risk. Can you name 1 transaction that he has done in 3 years that would fit this definition ? Do you think he is the kind of GM that would ever consider even a basic overpay ? Gotcha! I agree with you that I don't think he's made a single signing that fits this description. I think that's a good thing personally, but I also do think there's room for him to take on more risk, especially this coming offseason when so much money is coming off the books.
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Post by Guidas on May 2, 2022 10:00:45 GMT -5
I would add, I’m still in “wait and see” mode because I’m not sure Bloom has yet shaped the core of the roster to where he wants it - in other words, to the point where he’d be willing to take those “unreasonable risks” and put us over the top. The trouble is -our current core is about to leave (Xander, Devers, Kiké, Eovaldi) -no one other than Casas is really knocking on the door -the next few FA classes are pretty uninspiring So, if we’re planning to fully utilize our $200M budget, either we push more chips in this year (IE, don’t use JBJ as a starting outfielder), or do a quick teardown, which means that next run is probably 2-5 years away. The focus was always on 2024. The reason why Story was signed was to save money at Shortstop and use it somewhere else. Either you trade Xander for prospects or let him walk. Same with Devers. The top prospects are going to need to perform as they progress through the system. This is becoming a big distraction to the team it seems. Good to know. Where will they get #1 and #2 starters for that year? Because we have zero in the system who legitimately project to that. Ditto for a MLB average catcher. And if Devers goes, who's at third? Which top prospects will you be willing to trade for these? Or what free agents next year and the year after are you willing to buy to fill these gaps. Because, even though I agree with you often, as Orion09 says, the next couple free-agent classes are pretty meh with just four to six true top-end impact players (and a few of the projected stars - Bogaerts, Eovalidi and Benintendi will be former Sox who are likely not coming back). And this farm only has a few current true projected MLB average or better position players (Casas, Duran, Meyer, maybe Yorke maybe Lugo, and perhaps a dark horse will rise but that's a bonus, not a probability) no starters currently projected any higher than a 3 (and mostly the usual collection of 5s). I eagerly await the blueprint for the 2024 plan.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 2, 2022 10:52:18 GMT -5
The focus was always on 2024. The reason why Story was signed was to save money at Shortstop and use it somewhere else. Either you trade Xander for prospects or let him walk. Same with Devers. The top prospects are going to need to perform as they progress through the system. This is becoming a big distraction to the team it seems. Good to know. Where will they get #1 and #2 starters for that year? Because we have zero in the system who legitimately project to that. Ditto for a MLB average catcher. And if Devers goes, who's at third? Which top prospects will you be willing to trade for these? Or what free agents next year and the year after are you willing to buy to fill these gaps. Because, even though I agree with you often, as Orion09 says, the next couple free-agent classes are pretty meh with just four to six true top-end impact players (and a few of the projected stars - Bogaerts, Eovalidi and Benintendi will be former Sox who are likely not coming back). And this farm only has a few current true projected MLB average or better position players (Casas, Duran, Meyer, maybe Yorke maybe Lugo, and perhaps a dark horse will rise but that's a bonus, not a probability) no starters currently projected any higher than a 3 (and mostly the usual collection of 5s). I eagerly await the blueprint for the 2024 plan. The way this season is going.....if Bloom doesn't really plan on signing his main guys then he'd be a fool not to trade Devers, X, Eovaldi, and JDM, and even Kiké or even Vazquez. I would think X would bring back some talent, even as a rental. And if he's not willing to pay 300 million for Devers then he better trade his after this season or maybe even this July if they're dead in the water, which is becoming an increasing possibility. I would think/hope that he'd get back some substantial young talent, so that there is a future starting pitcher, future 3b, corner OF, CF, whatever. In other words I don't think the entire next core of the next seriously contending Red Sox team is fully in place. At this point we're kind of penciling in Mayer, Yorke, and Casas for 3/4 of the infield and I hate to say it, but it's looking more and more like Trevor Story is their future 3b, at some point. So we're probably more in 2025 than 2024. And so then perhaps Binelas is a platoon LF or Miguel Bleis is nearing major league readiness. Maybe Cedanne continues to develop and is a real possibility. Perhaps Lugo? Position-wise it's not completely barren. I'd hope with Devers, a trade would bring back a strong starting pitching prospect and perhaps a catching prospect or outfield prospect. That's why I eye the Mets in a deal. Hopefully some of the guys in the minors will have broken through as a starter by then? Based on history, an iffy proposition to be sure. Maybe Duran is a regular by then? Questionable, I know. I mean, at this point, I'd be looking to call up Casas and Duran by midseason if they're playing well in AAA. My overarching point is that I see your concern and it makes sense. I just think it's a work in progress with an increasing chance to bring back prospects given how the Sox are looking this season.
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Post by briam on May 2, 2022 11:00:52 GMT -5
I keep coming back to that Joon Lee article on Opening Day Eve.
“The signing of Story marked the first free-agent signing with a long-term financial investment during chief baseball officer Chaim Bloom's tenure with the team. According to Red Sox baseball operations sources, there was growing wave of discontent in some parts of the front office about Bloom's lack of willingness to invest significant amounts of money in free agency. The signing of Story calmed any front-office tension about the willingness of baseball operations leadership to invest in star players, sources said.”
I’m really starting to believe Bloom didn’t see a true contender and didn’t want to spend only for the big market pressure to get to him.
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Post by ortiz on May 2, 2022 11:01:06 GMT -5
I would add, I’m still in “wait and see” mode because I’m not sure Bloom has yet shaped the core of the roster to where he wants it - in other words, to the point where he’d be willing to take those “unreasonable risks” and put us over the top. The trouble is -our current core is about to leave (Xander, Devers, Kiké, Eovaldi) -no one other than Casas is really knocking on the door -the next few FA classes are pretty uninspiring So, if we’re planning to fully utilize our $200M budget, either we push more chips in this year (IE, don’t use JBJ as a starting outfielder), or do a quick teardown, which means that next run is probably 2-5 years away. The focus was always on 2024. The reason why Story was signed was to save money at Shortstop and use it somewhere else. Either you trade Xander for prospects or let him walk. Same with Devers. The top prospects are going to need to perform as they progress through the system. This is becoming a big distraction to the team it seems. I'm not sure if the focus being 2024 is true or not, but even if it is Devers will only be 27, he is a must keep if we intend to contend in 2024.
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Post by incandenza on May 2, 2022 11:10:44 GMT -5
Wow, lots of talk radio-level nonsense on this page of the thread. I won't bother with most of it, but let me just say I'm really amused by the implied theory that Bloom was smarter than every projection system and almost all fans and pundits in that he saw from the beginning that this team wasn't going to contend, but at the same time he was too dumb to field a contender with a $240 million payroll.
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