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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 3, 2023 7:53:12 GMT -5
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 3, 2023 17:01:31 GMT -5
Strong disagree with that interpretation. If you listen to the interview Cotillo asks if the plan would ever be to move Bello to the bullpen or would he more likely still start, even in Worcester. It was all very theoretical and it was coming from Cotillo, not Bloom. The clear takeaway is they've discussed scenarios but they're going to get everyone into camp and see how things go. Bloom said they're not ready to "show their cards" yet regarding the rotation. Edit: I re-read the story and get why you'd think that. I strongly suggest listening to the podcast episode. That was from Cotillo, not Bloom.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 3, 2023 20:16:42 GMT -5
Strong disagree with that interpretation. If you listen to the interview Cotillo asks if the plan would ever be to move Bello to the bullpen or would he more likely still start, even in Worcester. It was all very theoretical and it was coming from Cotillo, not Bloom. The clear takeaway is they've discussed scenarios but they're going to get everyone into camp and see how things go. Bloom said they're not ready to "show their cards" yet regarding the rotation. Edit: I re-read the story and get why you'd think that. I strongly suggest listening to the podcast episode. That was from Cotillo, not Bloom. If everyone including Paxton is healthy, I don't see any logical alternatives based on what Chaim said. The first quote was said previously, the second quote (about Bello) is new. ADD: If everyone is health (lol, IF) early in the season, sending Bello to Woosta could have two benefits, 1. It would allow the Sox to keep Bello's early season innings to a minimum so that he's be primed for the stretch run and 2. getting an additional year of Bello service is not all that far away. ADD: My computer is down, using a laptop, old ears for detailed listening for now.
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Post by RedSoxStats on Feb 3, 2023 20:30:55 GMT -5
It's pretty dang far away, they'd need to keep him in the minors until like the 4th of July. I think he's clearly in the rotation if he's good to go, Pivetta the odd man out.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 3, 2023 20:40:16 GMT -5
It's pretty dang far away, they'd need to keep him in the minors until like the 4th of July. I think he's clearly in the rotation if he's good to go, Pivetta the odd man out. AH OK, fair enough but Pivetta is the only member if the staff who projects for a complete innings season. ADD: Yeah I know, promises promises but, if you remember the covid camp season, Pivetta agreed to stay there and lose a year service time in return for making him a starter.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 4, 2023 1:33:20 GMT -5
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Feb 4, 2023 11:17:19 GMT -5
So the Red Sox have six starters:
Sale Kluber Bello Whitlock Pivetta Paxton (You could add Houck as a seventh).
Who will they start since multiple articles have the Red Sox saying they are all starters…..so who will they start? Answer: all of them! There is zero chance they are all healthy at once (and maybe Houck is a full time starter too if two are hurt)!
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Feb 4, 2023 11:37:44 GMT -5
So the Red Sox have six starters: Sale/HouckKluber Bello Paxton/WhitlockPivetta Who will they start since multiple articles have the Red Sox saying they are all starters…..so who will they start? Answer: all of them! There is zero chance they are all healthy at once (and maybe Houck is a full time starter too if two are hurt)! The answer's pretty obvious to me. When they're all healthy, they'll piggyback them.
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Post by seamus on Feb 4, 2023 13:40:04 GMT -5
Yeah, Paxton/Whitlock and Sale/Houck piggybacks for at least the first month or so (basically, long enough for somebody to get hurt properly and solve the logjam naturally) definitely makes the most sense.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Feb 4, 2023 16:09:35 GMT -5
With two piggybacks in a 5-game rotation, that still leaves you with 6 full-time RP and there should be less need for them on the two piggyback days. There's also enough guys with options to give guys a breather by swapping out with a Worcester arm for a couple weeks.
Jansen Martin Bleier* Rodriguez* Brasier Schreiber/Kelly/Mills (all have options)
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Post by johnsilver52 on Feb 5, 2023 2:57:22 GMT -5
It's pretty dang far away, they'd need to keep him in the minors until like the 4th of July. I think he's clearly in the rotation if he's good to go, Pivetta the odd man out. AH OK, fair enough but Pivetta is the only member if the staff who projects for a complete innings season. ADD: Yeah I know, promises promises but, if you remember the covid camp season, Pivetta agreed to stay there and lose a year service time in return for making him a starter. Can't agree more Phil. Keep seeing various projections from some leaving Pivetta out of the rotation and they just don't hold any water for multiple reasons. First, obviously he's the only known healthy and solid starter they have and second? he's shown himself to be the proverbial team player since joining Boston 3y ago and put in solid Wakefield-esque numbers, which is the type every team needs for a value price.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Feb 5, 2023 10:31:10 GMT -5
So the Red Sox have six starters: Sale/HouckKluber Bello Paxton/WhitlockPivetta Who will they start since multiple articles have the Red Sox saying they are all starters…..so who will they start? Answer: all of them! There is zero chance they are all healthy at once (and maybe Houck is a full time starter too if two are hurt)! The answer's pretty obvious to me. When they're all healthy, they'll piggyback them. I do not bet, but this is one that would be an easy win. I see zero chance all 7 ‘starters’ are healthy on opening day. That was my point. If they are health then piggyback is obviously as Sale and Paxton will not be going too deep into games, but I highly doubt this happens. How many times has a starter started on the DL in the last ten years? Almost every year.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 5, 2023 10:42:33 GMT -5
The answer's pretty obvious to me. When they're all healthy, they'll piggyback them. I do not bet, but this is one that would be an easy win. I see zero chance all 7 ‘starters’ are healthy on opening day. That was my point. If they are health then piggyback is obviously as Sale and Paxton will not be going too deep into games, but I highly doubt this happens. How many times has a starter started on the DL in the last ten years? Almost every year. Paxton was supposed to be healthy, got two outs and was out the rest of the season. I don't expect all 7 to be healthy at any one time either. If things work out well then you see Sale, Bello, Kluber, Whitlock, and Pivetta starting. I'd be surprised if Paxton is a full go. At the moment I'd think Houck is the 6th/7th guy and he could be doing that in tandem with Crawford. Of course I wouldn't be surprised if Houck got pressed into starting pitcher duty because I can easily see one of the 5 starters I listed getting injured and before long you see Winckowski pitching out of the pen or making spot starts. It'll be later in the season we see Mata, Walter, or Murphy get starts. And yeah, Paxton once he's healthy will get inserted into the rotation. I can easily see 10 different guys getting starts during the season.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Feb 6, 2023 10:28:42 GMT -5
Has any team gone with the piggybacking concept for any significant period of time? It's comes up on this site every so often, but I can't imagine that it would work through multiple turns of the rotation.
If a high-leverage situation arises on Monday and Cora thinks Whitlock gives him the best chance to win that game, he's going to call for Whitlock (which is exactly what he should do), even if Sale is pitching on Tuesday. Conversely, if a Sale game turns into a blowout early, it wouldn't make sense to use Whitlock.
Sticking dogmatically to the piggybacking strategy means Cora wouldn't be making optimal use of Whitlock and Houck.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 6, 2023 11:00:31 GMT -5
Has any team gone with the piggybacking concept for any significant period of time? It's comes up on this site every so often, but I can't imagine that it would work through multiple turns of the rotation. If a high-leverage situation arises on Monday and Cora thinks Whitlock gives him the best chance to win that game, he's going to call for Whitlock (which is exactly what he should do), even if Sale is pitching on Tuesday. Conversely, if a Sale game turns into a blowout early, it wouldn't make sense to use Whitlock. Sticking dogmatically to the piggybacking strategy means Cora wouldn't be making optimal use of Whitlock and Houck. I think this is fair. Same with Houck in a late inning spot where he's a good matchup for 3-4-5 in the 7th or something. I think piggybacking only happens if they have guys who are in a literal "he needs to come out after 3 ip/60 pitches" scenario. From last year, I found one instance of Houck going 3 after Hill went 4 (4/29), going 4 after Hill went 2 (5/19), and going 3 after Hill went 5 (5/25). So they're willing to do it, but I also don't think they'd do it for more than a few weeks as they build guys.
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Post by scottysmalls on Feb 6, 2023 11:08:51 GMT -5
I do not bet, but this is one that would be an easy win. I see zero chance all 7 ‘starters’ are healthy on opening day. That was my point. If they are health then piggyback is obviously as Sale and Paxton will not be going too deep into games, but I highly doubt this happens. How many times has a starter started on the DL in the last ten years? Almost every year. Paxton was supposed to be healthy, got two outs and was out the rest of the season. I don't expect all 7 to be healthy at any one time either. If things work out well then you see Sale, Bello, Kluber, Whitlock, and Pivetta starting. I'd be surprised if Paxton is a full go. At the moment I'd think Houck is the 6th/7th guy and he could be doing that in tandem with Crawford. Of course I wouldn't be surprised if Houck got pressed into starting pitcher duty because I can easily see one of the 5 starters I listed getting injured and before long you see Winckowski pitching out of the pen or making spot starts. It'll be later in the season we see Mata, Walter, or Murphy get starts. And yeah, Paxton once he's healthy will get inserted into the rotation. I can easily see 10 different guys getting starts during the season.Only two teams in baseball had less than 10 guys make starts last year (Houston and Colorado) so I'd be really surprised if the Red Sox had under 10 given the various health concerns and depth of starters they have.
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Post by jmei on Feb 6, 2023 11:15:45 GMT -5
Has any team gone with the piggybacking concept for any significant period of time? It's comes up on this site every so often, but I can't imagine that it would work through multiple turns of the rotation. If a high-leverage situation arises on Monday and Cora thinks Whitlock gives him the best chance to win that game, he's going to call for Whitlock (which is exactly what he should do), even if Sale is pitching on Tuesday. Conversely, if a Sale game turns into a blowout early, it wouldn't make sense to use Whitlock. Sticking dogmatically to the piggybacking strategy means Cora wouldn't be making optimal use of Whitlock and Houck. A lot of teams have used the "opener" strategy to good success in the last few years, which is really just a modified version of piggybacking where the reliever pitches before the starter does. A lot of other teams used piggyback starters in the 2020 COVID season (and, in some cases, in seasons since) to avoid stretching out starters up too fast, and it generally went OK. It takes a little discipline to commit to not using the piggyback guys in any role other than their piggyback role, but is definitely doable.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Feb 6, 2023 11:18:54 GMT -5
Has any team gone with the piggybacking concept for any significant period of time? It's comes up on this site every so often, but I can't imagine that it would work through multiple turns of the rotation. If a high-leverage situation arises on Monday and Cora thinks Whitlock gives him the best chance to win that game, he's going to call for Whitlock (which is exactly what he should do), even if Sale is pitching on Tuesday. Conversely, if a Sale game turns into a blowout early, it wouldn't make sense to use Whitlock. Sticking dogmatically to the piggybacking strategy means Cora wouldn't be making optimal use of Whitlock and Houck. I think this is fair. Same with Houck in a late inning spot where he's a good matchup for 3-4-5 in the 7th or something. I think piggybacking only happens if they have guys who are in a literal "he needs to come out after 3 ip/60 pitches" scenario. From last year, I found one instance of Houck going 3 after Hill went 4 (4/29), going 4 after Hill went 2 (5/19), and going 3 after Hill went 5 (5/25). So they're willing to do it, but I also don't think they'd do it for more than a few weeks as they build guys. Totally agree. If Houck is not starting they may use him a couple time as a piggyback, but if he is not starting then he is a reliever and will be used in high leverage. The FO has repeatedly said they want Whitlock starting! IMO, he will not be piggybacking unless he gets to mid-season and needs a break, but at that point it is more likely they claim sore shoulder and give him a DL stint. If they want Whitlock to be a starter long term, they need to let him start and quit messing with his routine. Piggybacking will totally depend on who is starting, how stretched out they are, and what health concerns there are. I could easily see Paxton remain in extended spring training rather than go 2 or 3 innings regularly for the first 7 or 8 starts. I would prefer they not burn out the bullpen in the first half.
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Post by Jimmy on Feb 6, 2023 18:28:09 GMT -5
I’m not very familiar with the service time rules.. how long would Bello have to spend in the minors this year for the Sox to pick up a year on his rookie deal?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 6, 2023 18:59:57 GMT -5
I’m not very familiar with the service time rules.. how long would Bello have to spend in the minors this year for the Sox to pick up a year on his rookie deal? 85 days, I believe
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Post by gerry on Feb 6, 2023 19:40:31 GMT -5
I’m not very familiar with the service time rules.. how long would Bello have to spend in the minors this year for the Sox to pick up a year on his rookie deal? 85 days, I believe In which case Bello and Story would be coming back around the same time, after missing ~half the season. Interesting idea? Yes, but IMO Bello is already too good to mess with his time clock. Better to just extend him on a win-won deal some time this year (along with Houck, Schreiber, Casas). Build the core.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Feb 6, 2023 23:28:31 GMT -5
I think this is fair. Same with Houck in a late inning spot where he's a good matchup for 3-4-5 in the 7th or something. I think piggybacking only happens if they have guys who are in a literal "he needs to come out after 3 ip/60 pitches" scenario. From last year, I found one instance of Houck going 3 after Hill went 4 (4/29), going 4 after Hill went 2 (5/19), and going 3 after Hill went 5 (5/25). So they're willing to do it, but I also don't think they'd do it for more than a few weeks as they build guys. Totally agree. If Houck is not starting they may use him a couple time as a piggyback, but if he is not starting then he is a reliever and will be used in high leverage. The FO has repeatedly said they want Whitlock starting! IMO, he will not be piggybacking unless he gets to mid-season and needs a break, but at that point it is more likely they claim sore shoulder and give him a DL stint. If they want Whitlock to be a starter long term, they need to let him start and quit messing with his routine. Piggybacking will totally depend on who is starting, how stretched out they are, and what health concerns there are. I could easily see Paxton remain in extended spring training rather than go 2 or 3 innings regularly for the first 7 or 8 starts. I would prefer they not burn out the bullpen in the first half. Yes, they have said this but how about let him prove he's completely ready after a year of ups and downs healthwise (following a return from TJ)? Why not a half-dozen 3-4 inning stints in April while piggybacking with Paxton, who also has a lot to prove healthwise? If both guys give you 3+ innings, you're into the 7th or maybe even 8th inning and your bullpen gets a bit of a breather.
Sale is obviously going to be on a slow ramp in April. Houck had issues vs. LHH last year (.338 wOBAa), so maybe asking him to go one time through the order every five days (while either facing mostly RHH or inducing the opposing manager to use a bunch of PHs in the middle innings) will get him back on a track that leads to starting again.
Again, the initial question was "what do we do if all 7 starters are healthy?" My answer is you piggyback them until they're no longer all healthy. If you're lucky enough to avoid injuries, you can ease guys that need kid gloves (basically everyone besides Pivetta and maybe Kluber) into heavier workloads and then figure it out in May.
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Post by keninten on Feb 7, 2023 0:14:59 GMT -5
Totally agree. If Houck is not starting they may use him a couple time as a piggyback, but if he is not starting then he is a reliever and will be used in high leverage. The FO has repeatedly said they want Whitlock starting! IMO, he will not be piggybacking unless he gets to mid-season and needs a break, but at that point it is more likely they claim sore shoulder and give him a DL stint. If they want Whitlock to be a starter long term, they need to let him start and quit messing with his routine. Piggybacking will totally depend on who is starting, how stretched out they are, and what health concerns there are. I could easily see Paxton remain in extended spring training rather than go 2 or 3 innings regularly for the first 7 or 8 starts. I would prefer they not burn out the bullpen in the first half. Yes, they have said this but how about let him prove he's completely ready after a year of ups and downs healthwise (following a return from TJ)? Why not a half-dozen 3-4 inning stints in April while piggybacking with Paxton, who also has a lot to prove healthwise? If both guys give you 3+ innings, you're into the 7th or maybe even 8th inning and your bullpen gets a bit of a breather.
Sale is obviously going to be on a slow ramp in April. Houck had issues vs. LHH last year (.338 wOBAa), so maybe asking him to go one time through the order every five days (while either facing mostly RHH or inducing the opposing manager to use a bunch of PHs in the middle innings) will get him back on a track that leads to starting again.
Again, the initial question was "what do we do if all 7 starters are healthy?" My answer is you piggyback them until they're no longer all healthy. If you're lucky enough to avoid injuries, you can ease guys that need kid gloves (basically everyone besides Pivetta and maybe Kluber) into heavier workloads and then figure it out in May.
If everyone is healthy, Bello will be sent to AAA.
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Post by jmei on Feb 7, 2023 6:46:21 GMT -5
Sending Bello to AAA is both bad for the team (he’s arguably their best starting pitcher) and his development (he’s got nothing left to prove there). He’s not going to be sent down long enough to get another year of team control. They don’t have enough of a roster crunch that they have to DFA someone to keep him up. Because of all that, I don’t see any real scenario where he’s sent down to start the season.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 7, 2023 7:31:01 GMT -5
Yeah the ship has sailed on picking up another year unless something goes terribly wrong. And I do not agree that it's certain he goes to AAA if everyone is healthy. I'm not sure why multiple people here seem to think that. How is he not one of the top 13 MLB arms this team has?
The Bloom quote came in the context of questions from Cotillo about making starters into actual relievers. I don't think that some kind of piggyback system would fall into what Bloom was talking about.
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