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2023 40-Man Roster Discussion
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,787
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Post by nomar on Nov 23, 2022 19:38:40 GMT -5
Hoy ve
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Nov 23, 2022 19:58:56 GMT -5
Trading an 18 year old for a JAG that was DFAed makes a ton of sense! You can never have too many scrubs on the 40-man
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,976
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Post by cdj on Nov 23, 2022 20:22:55 GMT -5
I couldn’t possibly get up the energy to be legitimately critical of this move. It’s a soft tossing DSL guy for utility depth.
Like I hope we are adult enough to realize Park has very likely already played a lot more in the bigs than Lobo ever will, right?
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Post by julyanmorley on Nov 23, 2022 20:27:21 GMT -5
Interesting batting stance
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Post by Smittyw on Nov 23, 2022 20:40:36 GMT -5
The wolf did not survive.
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Post by xdmo on Nov 23, 2022 21:11:48 GMT -5
To this point, the Sox have made 3 transactions. Small, but Bloom's brain is frying right now. Most teams haven't made one.
Gives me hope that Bloom is actually working harder and better than most GM's right now. Even small transaction wise. No stone left unturned.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 23, 2022 21:25:38 GMT -5
To this point, the Sox have made 3 transactions. Small, but Bloom's brain is frying right now. Most teams haven't made one. Gives me hope that Bloom is actually working harder and better than most GM's right now. Even small transaction wise. No stone left unturned. Bloom has always liked to tinker at the margins but I honestly can't say that I've seen it do much good. I mean the bottom of the Red Sox roster has been as bad as most other team's bottom of the roster. I haven't seen any advantage and getting Hoy and Crook certainly doesn't move the needle for me. Rodriguez might or might not help. Yes he misses bats and hard contact but he also misses the plate and I'm not a fan of bullpen guys who walk too many guys. I didn't enjoy the Jake Diekman experience last year. Throwing strikes consistently is who I like Strahm. Bloom will ultimately be graded on the impact moves he makes. A lot of the moves have been low impact and haven't really added to the core. That has to change starting this year. I know Story, Kiké, and Verdugo have been his 3 core lineup additions along with Pivetta and Whitlock for the pitching staff.
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Post by bellhorndingers21 on Nov 23, 2022 21:34:30 GMT -5
To this point, the Sox have made 3 transactions. Small, but Bloom's brain is frying right now. Most teams haven't made one. Gives me hope that Bloom is actually working harder and better than most GM's right now. Even small transaction wise. No stone left unturned. Bloom has always liked to tinker at the margins but I honestly can't say that I've seen it do much good. I mean the bottom of the Red Sox roster has been as bad as most other team's bottom of the roster. I haven't seen any advantage and getting Hoy and Crook certainly doesn't move the needle for me. Rodriguez might or might not help. Yes he misses bats and hard contact but he also misses the plate and I'm not a fan of bullpen guys who walk too many guys. I didn't enjoy the Jake Diekman experience last year. Throwing strikes consistently is who I like Strahm. Bloom will ultimately be graded on the impact moves he makes. A lot of the moves have been low impact and haven't really added to the core. That has to change starting this year. I know Story, Kiké, and Verdugo have been his 3 core lineup additions along with Pivetta and Whitlock for the pitching staff. Refsnyder, Schreiber, and Arroyo?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 23, 2022 21:45:25 GMT -5
Bloom has always liked to tinker at the margins but I honestly can't say that I've seen it do much good. I mean the bottom of the Red Sox roster has been as bad as most other team's bottom of the roster. I haven't seen any advantage and getting Hoy and Crook certainly doesn't move the needle for me. Rodriguez might or might not help. Yes he misses bats and hard contact but he also misses the plate and I'm not a fan of bullpen guys who walk too many guys. I didn't enjoy the Jake Diekman experience last year. Throwing strikes consistently is who I like Strahm. Bloom will ultimately be graded on the impact moves he makes. A lot of the moves have been low impact and haven't really added to the core. That has to change starting this year. I know Story, Kiké, and Verdugo have been his 3 core lineup additions along with Pivetta and Whitlock for the pitching staff. Refsnyder, Schreiber, and Arroyo? They're good additions but most teams have their own Arroyos, schreibers, and Refsnyders on the roster. The red sox have less of those types than others. We've seen plenty of Marwin gonzalez, danny santana, jack lopez types as well being cycled through. I come back to the 2004 Rec Sox and the bottom of their roster which featured gold gloves like Mienkiewicz and Reese, 2 backups whi could have started for 2nd division clubs like Kapler and Robert's, a solid backup catcher in Mirabelli and an up and comer like Youkilis. I dont expect that kind of perfection, but that gives you an idea of what a bottom of the roster could look like. There's just too many times there have been replacement level players on the roster.
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Post by scottysmalls on Nov 23, 2022 21:57:33 GMT -5
Refsnyder, Schreiber, and Arroyo? They're good additions but most teams have their own Arroyos, schreibers, and Refsnyders on the roster. The red sox have less of those types than others. We've seen plenty of Marwin gonzalez, danny santana, jack lopez types as well being cycled through. I come back to the 2004 Rec Sox and the bottom of their roster which featured gold gloves like Mienkiewicz and Reese, 2 backups whi could have started for 2nd division clubs like Kapler and Robert's, a solid backup catcher in Mirabelli and an up and comer like Youkilis. I dont expect that kind of perfection, but that gives you an idea of what a bottom of the roster could look like. There's just too many times there have been replacement level players on the roster. Yeah it’s too bad they can’t have a bottom of the roster with guys like Eduardo Nunez, Blake Swihart and Sam Travis.
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Post by incandenza on Nov 23, 2022 22:11:44 GMT -5
This genre of complaint that's like "there goes Bloom again, trying to find value at low cost" is so insane. Just on the face of it - what a weird thing to complain about. And of course every single team tries to do this every single season.
I guess the idea behind the complaint is that you can't build a team out of minor moves alone; you also need to make some big free agent signings. Well I have good news! Bloom has made literally the maximum number of 9-figure signings he's had the financial flexibility to make!
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Post by scottysmalls on Nov 23, 2022 22:23:14 GMT -5
By the way Doug Mienkiewicz had -0.6 WAR in 2004.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 23, 2022 22:34:33 GMT -5
By the way Doug Mienkiewicz had -0.6 WAR in 2004. He was there to be a drastic defensive improvement for Kevin Millar, which he clearly was and it was needed given Millar's lousy defense. If he played every day his WAR would suck, but for what the Sox got him for, it was perfect. Don't really care what WAR says. Dont know how well you remember 04, but they were getting killed by their defense most of the year. By year's end they were bringing in gold glovers off the bench to preserve their victories. It was uncanny. They had a perfectly functioning roster where everybody served a purpose and contributed.
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Post by incandenza on Nov 23, 2022 22:38:51 GMT -5
By the way Doug Mienkiewicz had -0.6 WAR in 2004. Free hot take for anyone who wants it: the Garciaparra trade was actually bad. He put up 1.1 fWAR for the Cubs that season, who also got 5 WAR out of Matt Murton over the next three years; the Red Sox got 0.1 WAR out of Mientkiewicz and Cabrera combined.
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Post by scottysmalls on Nov 23, 2022 22:52:41 GMT -5
By the way Doug Mienkiewicz had -0.6 WAR in 2004. He was there to be a drastic defensive improvement for Kevin Millar, which he clearly was and it was needed given Millar's lousy defense. If he played every day his WAR would suck, but for what the Sox got him for, it was perfect. Don't really care what WAR says. Dont know how well you remember 04, but they were getting killed by their defense most of the year. By year's end they were bringing in gold glovers off the bench to preserve their victories. It was uncanny. They had a perfectly functioning roster where everybody served a purpose and contributed. The 2004 team is a core memory for me and I believe Theo is the greatest sports executive of the 21st century. He, and guys like him, are the reason that guys like Bloom dominate GM offices today, and even the reason other sports leagues have embraced analytics so much more. I still don’t believe Mienkiewicz helped very much that year. My only point is that every year championship teams are going to have drags at the bottom of the roster.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 23, 2022 22:58:06 GMT -5
By the way Doug Mienkiewicz had -0.6 WAR in 2004. Free hot take for anyone who wants it: the Garciaparra trade was actually bad. He put up 1.1 fWAR for the Cubs that season, who also got 5 WAR out of Matt Murton over the next three years; the Red Sox got 0.1 WAR out of Mientkiewicz and Cabrera combined. That stuff never takes timing into account. Cabrera gave the Sox what they needed, steady strong defense at SS and enough offense and when he left they got 2 draft picks, one of which was Ellsbury I believe. I don't think they win with an injury question mark defensively challenged like Nomar was at SS during that tine. Murton was nothing special as it turned out, like Cabrera, Nomar was onto his next team the following year - I think he went to the Dodgers in 05? I was glad Mientkiewicz settled into Millar's caddy role because Millar finally started hitting well in the 2nd half but was always a liability at 1b. Mientkiewicz was a vacuum cleaner at 1b. Between Reese, Cabrera, and Mienkiewicz they had some great infield defense which was the opposite of what they had. I'd be lying if I said I liked the trade at the time, but damn, Theo diagnosed the team's problems and solved it. I dont care what WAR says. Honestly it's like somebody hangs a WAR on me and it's supposed to be like end of the discussion but I dont see it that way. I dont think WAR captures timing and circumstances in its equations and that nuance can matter
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 23, 2022 23:10:15 GMT -5
He was there to be a drastic defensive improvement for Kevin Millar, which he clearly was and it was needed given Millar's lousy defense. If he played every day his WAR would suck, but for what the Sox got him for, it was perfect. Don't really care what WAR says. Dont know how well you remember 04, but they were getting killed by their defense most of the year. By year's end they were bringing in gold glovers off the bench to preserve their victories. It was uncanny. They had a perfectly functioning roster where everybody served a purpose and contributed. The 2004 team is a core memory for me and I believe Theo is the greatest sports executive of the 21st century. He, and guys like him, are the reason that guys like Bloom dominate GM offices today, and even the reason other sports leagues have embraced analytics so much more. I still don’t believe Mienkiewicz helped very much that year. My only point is that every year championship teams are going to have drags at the bottom of the roster. I was thrilled when Theo became GM because he took them out of the stone age. He was sort of a trailblazer. Now they're all trying to be him. If course he has several advantages that Bloom and others dont enjoy. Theo was competing against other GNs who were still in the stone age and he exploited them, never more so than in the 2002-2003 offseason which set the Sox up for years. But now all GMs, Bloom included, are like that, and I think Theo said it himself, it hasn't exactly enhanced the actual game of baseball. It has brought us 3 true outcome baseball where starters barely make it past 5 innings because they're not allowed to face the batter a 3rd time as pitchers are no longer conditioned to pitch but are there to miss bats and then hand off the baton to a bunch of anonymous relievers throwing 100 MPH in an effort to dodge bats. Doesnt exactly make the game better. Well see if some of these rule changes steer baseball away from that.
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Post by scottysmalls on Nov 23, 2022 23:18:54 GMT -5
The 2004 team is a core memory for me and I believe Theo is the greatest sports executive of the 21st century. He, and guys like him, are the reason that guys like Bloom dominate GM offices today, and even the reason other sports leagues have embraced analytics so much more. I still don’t believe Mienkiewicz helped very much that year. My only point is that every year championship teams are going to have drags at the bottom of the roster. I was thrilled when Theo became GM because he took them out of the stone age. He was sort of a trailblazer. Now they're all trying to be him. If course he has several advantages that Bloom and others dont enjoy. Theo was competing against other GNs who were still in the stone age and he exploited them, never more so than in the 2002-2003 offseason which set the Sox up for years. But now all GMs, Bloom included, are like that, and I think Theo said it himself, it hasn't exactly enhanced the actual game of baseball. It has brought us 3 true outcome baseball where starters barely make it past 5 innings because they're not allowed to face the batter a 3rd time as pitchers are no longer conditioned to pitch but are there to miss bats and then hand off the baton to a bunch of anonymous relievers throwing 100 MPH in an effort to dodge bats. Doesnt exactly make the game better. Well see if some of these rule changes steer baseball away from that. On all of this I totally agree with you. Baseball was more fun before the trends you mentioned.
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Post by incandenza on Nov 23, 2022 23:19:12 GMT -5
Free hot take for anyone who wants it: the Garciaparra trade was actually bad. He put up 1.1 fWAR for the Cubs that season, who also got 5 WAR out of Matt Murton over the next three years; the Red Sox got 0.1 WAR out of Mientkiewicz and Cabrera combined. That stuff never takes timing into account. Cabrera gave the Sox what they needed, steady strong defense at SS and enough offense and when he left they got 2 draft picks, one of which was Ellsbury I believe. I don't think they win with an injury question mark defensively challenged like Nomar was at SS during that tine. Murton was nothing special as it turned out, like Cabrera, Nomar was onto his next team the following year - I think he went to the Dodgers in 05? I was glad Mientkiewicz settled into Millar's caddy role because Millar finally started hitting well in the 2nd half but was always a liability at 1b. Mientkiewicz was a vacuum cleaner at 1b. Between Reese, Cabrera, and Mienkiewicz they had some great infield defense which was the opposite of what they had. I'd be lying if I said I liked the trade at the time, but damn, Theo diagnosed the team's problems and solved it. I dont care what WAR says. Honestly it's like somebody hangs a WAR on me and it's supposed to be like end of the discussion but I dont see it that way. I dont think WAR captures timing and circumstances in its equations and that nuance can matter True, WAR never tells the whole story. I actually have no opinion about that trade because - and here's my sob story as a Red Sox fan - I didn't see a single inning of that season as I was out of the country the whole year. The only season of baseball I missed entirely in my life.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 23, 2022 23:19:40 GMT -5
He was there to be a drastic defensive improvement for Kevin Millar, which he clearly was and it was needed given Millar's lousy defense. If he played every day his WAR would suck, but for what the Sox got him for, it was perfect. Don't really care what WAR says. Dont know how well you remember 04, but they were getting killed by their defense most of the year. By year's end they were bringing in gold glovers off the bench to preserve their victories. It was uncanny. They had a perfectly functioning roster where everybody served a purpose and contributed. The 2004 team is a core memory for me and I believe Theo is the greatest sports executive of the 21st century. He, and guys like him, are the reason that guys like Bloom dominate GM offices today, and even the reason other sports leagues have embraced analytics so much more. I still don’t believe Mienkiewicz helped very much that year. My only point is that every year championship teams are going to have drags at the bottom of the roster. As for you other point I agree all teams are supposed to have some drag at the bottom of the roster. Bloom was billed as a guy who would tinker at the edges of the margins reducing the drag, but honestly I dont really see where he has. I dont see better bottoms of the roster than what they previously had under Dombrowski to be honest And until Bloom can make the top part of the roster stronger I will be in a prove it to me mode. I will say that I like Casas, Bello, Mayer, Bleis, Rafaela, Yorke and am curious about Romero, Jordan, and Hickey, so in other words there may be an outline of a homegrown core coming along that they haven't had in awhile. It's a bit away and needs more thickening (Anthony, Lugo, the catcher they drafted this year, Perales?)
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 23, 2022 23:28:11 GMT -5
That stuff never takes timing into account. Cabrera gave the Sox what they needed, steady strong defense at SS and enough offense and when he left they got 2 draft picks, one of which was Ellsbury I believe. I don't think they win with an injury question mark defensively challenged like Nomar was at SS during that tine. Murton was nothing special as it turned out, like Cabrera, Nomar was onto his next team the following year - I think he went to the Dodgers in 05? I was glad Mientkiewicz settled into Millar's caddy role because Millar finally started hitting well in the 2nd half but was always a liability at 1b. Mientkiewicz was a vacuum cleaner at 1b. Between Reese, Cabrera, and Mienkiewicz they had some great infield defense which was the opposite of what they had. I'd be lying if I said I liked the trade at the time, but damn, Theo diagnosed the team's problems and solved it. I dont care what WAR says. Honestly it's like somebody hangs a WAR on me and it's supposed to be like end of the discussion but I dont see it that way. I dont think WAR captures timing and circumstances in its equations and that nuance can matter True, WAR never tells the whole story. I actually have no opinion about that trade because - and here's my sob story as a Red Sox fan - I didn't see a single inning of that season as I was out of the country the whole year. The only season of baseball I missed entirely in my life. Oof, tough year to miss. 3/4 if the year was frustrating, but that ARod/Tek brawl really woke them up. It actually happened moments after the cameras caught Theo yawning, which encapsulated that season to date. I know they only went 8-6 after that trade and then had their 34-12 stretch to end the season, but damn the stats, the season suddenly felt different after that brawl. I suddenly felt like that team was worthy of a second chance and I got attached to them enough I was even willing to watch them get eliminated to the Yankees in Game 4 knowing they'd be celebrating on the Sox field. I wanted to say goodbye to the team that would certainly be broken up but were so damn fun since that brawl. Fortunately the Sox were crazy enough to have other ideas
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,787
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Post by nomar on Nov 23, 2022 23:36:16 GMT -5
Trading an 18 year old for a JAG that was DFAed makes a ton of sense! You can never have too many scrubs on the 40-man You toy with the characters without knowing who they are
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 24, 2022 1:39:48 GMT -5
By the way Doug Mienkiewicz had -0.6 WAR in 2004. Free hot take for anyone who wants it: the Garciaparra trade was actually bad. He put up 1.1 fWAR for the Cubs that season, who also got 5 WAR out of Matt Murton over the next three years; the Red Sox got 0.1 WAR out of Mientkiewicz and Cabrera combined. A+ hot take but I'm going to shoot it down. The trade had more effect on the 2007, 2013, and 2018 titles than the 2004 one. Trading Nomar led to signing Renteria and then trading him for Coco Crisp, AND the compensation picks from losing Orlando Cabrera were Jacoby Ellsbury and Jed Lowrie. Lowire turned into Mark Melancon who turned into Brock Holt.
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Post by manfred on Nov 24, 2022 1:59:06 GMT -5
I won’t have Orlando Cabrera bashing. He was worth 1.8 bWAR in 58 games for the Sox. That is pretty good. And I loved him. He was a big time player. This is my line in the sand.
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Post by bosoxnation on Nov 24, 2022 3:05:10 GMT -5
If you guys want to pay Devers 300 million then you better get use to these moves. Just saying.
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