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2023 Trade Deadline Thread
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Post by Guidas on Aug 3, 2023 11:07:57 GMT -5
As for the report, it's (unsurprisingly) coming from the Marlins' side, and it's not hard for me to imagine that the Marlins might have thought Bloom was closer to agreeing to something here than he actually was. But who knows.
The leak is a little damaging to the Red Sox given prior comments about Turner being off the table. I wonder if there is some petty grudge from someone in Miami. Or, perhaps, the Marlins called asking about Turner and Mr. Bloom had no qualms about trading a 38 year old DH for a controllable starter who may project as a #3/4 or better. I mean, Turner's fun to watch and definitely a team leader, but if, as many of Mr. Bloom's acolytes say, you'll really see this team as he envisioned it in 2024, 2025 or 2026 and that's when this Ferrari will finally have 4 wheels, an engine and lots of fuel to burn, then Turner is/was expendable for a controllable asset in a position of need.  |
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Post by julyanmorley on Aug 3, 2023 11:10:16 GMT -5
Uh, I'm not saying the report is a lie. Teams aren't in the general habit of leaking all their aborted trade ideas though.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Aug 3, 2023 11:14:11 GMT -5
Uh, I'm not saying the report is a lie. Teams aren't in the general habit of leaking all their aborted trade ideas though. The media is no friend to Chaim Bloom |
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Post by patford on Aug 3, 2023 11:16:29 GMT -5
Not sure how the Astros trading for Verlander is a brilliant move. They apparently did not want to pay him when they could have resigned him. Now they are paying him and giving up prospects. Reminds me of when everyone thought the Mets and the Padres "won" the off season.
As far as the Sox go my guess is the veteran players they decided to keep (Turner, Paxton, Verdugo, Duval) the Sox want to keep next year as well. Bloom very clearly does not want to move top prospects and the large number of Rule 5 bubble types other teams probably aren't offering anything for. Take Dalbec as an example. There are said to be teams who are interested but they probably know he's behind a log jam in Boston and they can probably get him for nothing. The type of player offered for the older Sox prospects who are Rule 5 eligible are probably getting the same type of player in return.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Aug 3, 2023 11:20:08 GMT -5
From the links thread: McCaffrey speculates that it would have taken Casas or Duran for the Red Sox to beat the Rays' offer for Aaron Civale, which, uh, yeah... glad they didn't pay the necessary price to add a mid-rotation starter (if that's even what Civale is). Uh.. a college 1B who is struggling in AAA after crushing the lower minors is nowhere near Casas. And Duran is at 2.8 WAR through half a season’s worth of PA and has 5.5 more years of control. How on earth do either equate to Manzardo (who I actually like)? Seems like a bad comparison IMO. If anything I would say it’s like trading Yorke or Rafaela. |
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Post by manfred on Aug 3, 2023 11:20:30 GMT -5
Not sure how the Astros trading for Verlander is a brilliant move. They apparently did not want to pay him when they could have resigned him. Now they are paying him and giving up prospects. Reminds me of when everyone thought the Mets and the Padres "won" the off season. As far as the Sox go my guess is the veteran players they decided to keep (Turner, Paxton, Verdugo, Duval) the Sox want to keep next year as well. Bloom very clearly does not want to move top prospects and the large number of Rule 5 bubble types other teams probably aren't offering anything for. Take Dalbec as an example. There are said to be teams who are interested but they probably know he's behind a log jam in Boston and they can probably get him for nothing. The type of player offered for the older Sox prospects who are Rule 5 eligible are probably getting the same type of player in return. They are paying him a lot less, though, and he’s been on a tear. Yeah, the prospects, but they recognize the overall situation they are in: their WS odds fall precipitously in the next few years, two prospects or no. They are all in for ‘23-‘24. |
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Post by remmartin34 on Aug 3, 2023 11:31:31 GMT -5
I haven't had a chance to look into the details of the Justin Turner leak, but if it turns out that was a deal that almost went through after Bloom and the front office said he was off the table.. and this isn't someone in the Marlins front office just trying to stir up some trouble.. That is BAD looks and vibes for this current 2023 Red Sox team.
Paxton to a desperate Dodgers team for a top 50 prospect and a fringe top 100 is one thing (still would have been bad looks if they weren't swinging that for a legit #2 starting pitcher under control).
But Turner has been your most clutch hitter, and essentially within half a season in Boston became your de-facto captain, and a mentor to the young guys making significant progress (Duran and Wong in particular). If Bloom was on the verge of trading him on the last day of the deadline, then I'm sorry, but that really makes me start to question his understanding of the game beyond analytics/numbers.
.....
I'm not saying that any of this is true or even more than hearsay. I still hold out faith in the path that Bloom has set this organization on, in order to contend on a yearly basis beginning next year. After initially overreacting BIG TIME to his lack of making a move for a rental starter, I was cool with the idea of him just letting this team roll as it is. After reflecting on it, I felt it was probably the best thing he could have done under the circumstances.
But if he was in fact actively shopping and on the verge of a deal to trade Justin Turner.. Then I'd be getting quite a bit more understanding of fans/media criticism, regarding his ability to "feel out" how important a Justin Turner is not only tangibly, but intangibly, to this team.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 3, 2023 11:31:34 GMT -5
Not sure how the Astros trading for Verlander is a brilliant move. They apparently did not want to pay him when they could have resigned him. Now they are paying him and giving up prospects. Reminds me of when everyone thought the Mets and the Padres "won" the off season. As far as the Sox go my guess is the veteran players they decided to keep (Turner, Paxton, Verdugo, Duval) the Sox want to keep next year as well. Bloom very clearly does not want to move top prospects and the large number of Rule 5 bubble types other teams probably aren't offering anything for. Take Dalbec as an example. There are said to be teams who are interested but they probably know he's behind a log jam in Boston and they can probably get him for nothing. The type of player offered for the older Sox prospects who are Rule 5 eligible are probably getting the same type of player in return. They got $57 Million, plus money toward his vesting option. Neither prospect was a top 100 and Gilbert has a FV of 50 (Fangraphs) which is good, but not a projected All Star. In other words, losing him may have hurt a bit, but it will not destroy or even hamstring their future. Most important, they acquired a pitcher whose K% rate went up in June and July while his BB% rate went down and has a second half wOBA of .213 (so far). They clearly believe he can help them win one or two more World Series Championships in the next two years. |
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Post by incandenza on Aug 3, 2023 11:35:19 GMT -5
From the links thread: McCaffrey speculates that it would have taken Casas or Duran for the Red Sox to beat the Rays' offer for Aaron Civale, which, uh, yeah... glad they didn't pay the necessary price to add a mid-rotation starter (if that's even what Civale is). Uh.. a college 1B who is struggling in AAA after crushing the lower minors is nowhere near Casas. And Duran is at 2.8 WAR through half a season’s worth of PA and has 5.5 more years of control. How on earth do either equate to Manzardo (who I actually like)? Seems like a bad comparison IMO. If anything I would say it’s like trading Yorke or Rafaela. She made precisely the comparison to Rafaela or Yorke, and her point was that neither Rafaela or Yorke would beat out Manzardo, which I think is accurate. So who do the Sox have with more value that would get it done? Mayer, I guess, but beyond that you'd be looking at Casas or Duran.
Maybe something like Rafaela + Perales would have done it, but that's still a hard pass for me.
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Post by remmartin34 on Aug 3, 2023 11:37:17 GMT -5
E-Rod had a bad year off the field last year, I’m sure he just wants to be left alone and out of the spotlight. Very easy situation for him right now. Getting thrust into a pennant race in LA is definitely much different than pitching in front of 75 people at comerica- just doesn’t seem like he wants to put his family through the switch and I respect that. ^^^^^Amen. Dude had a ton going on over the past few years with his marriage and physical health (heart situation). I love the dude, always will, and I respect a man that takes those things into consideration. And it's not like he's not pitching tail off for the Tigers right now.. |
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nomar
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Posts: 11,778
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Post by nomar on Aug 3, 2023 11:39:19 GMT -5
Uh.. a college 1B who is struggling in AAA after crushing the lower minors is nowhere near Casas. And Duran is at 2.8 WAR through half a season’s worth of PA and has 5.5 more years of control. How on earth do either equate to Manzardo (who I actually like)? Seems like a bad comparison IMO. If anything I would say it’s like trading Yorke or Rafaela. She made precisely the comparison to Rafaela or Yorke, and her point was that neither Rafaela or Yorke would beat out Manzardo, which I think is accurate. So who do the Sox have with more value that would get it done? Mayer, I guess, but beyond that you'd be looking at Casas or Duran.
Maybe something like Rafaela + Perales would have done it, but that's still a hard pass for me.
Oh ok got it. Yeah I don’t think the logical next step would be those two, I think it would be more like what you suggested, which is a gigantic no for me too. Civale is the luck king. If he was going to any other org I would be 100% convinced he’s crashing back down to earth soon, but he’s going to voodoo world where Luke Raley is Mark McGuire so who knows. |
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Post by incandenza on Aug 3, 2023 11:39:37 GMT -5
I haven't had a chance to look into the details of the Justin Turner leak, but if it turns out that was a deal that almost went through after Bloom and the front office said he was off the table.. and this isn't someone in the Marlins front office just trying to stir up some trouble.. That is BAD looks and vibes for this current 2023 Red Sox team. Paxton to a desperate Dodgers team for a top 50 prospect and a fringe top 100 is one thing (still would have been bad looks if they weren't swinging that for a legit #2 starting pitcher under control). But Turner has been your most clutch hitter, and essentially within half a season in Boston became your de-facto captain, and a mentor to the young guys making significant progress (Duran and Wong in particular). If Bloom was on the verge of trading him on the last day of the deadline, then I'm sorry, but that really makes me start to question his understanding of the game beyond analytics/numbers. .....
I'm not saying that any of this is true. I still hold out faith in the path that Bloom has set this organization on, in order to contend on a yearly basis beginning next year. After initially overreacting BIG TIME to his lack of making a move for a rental starter, I was cool with the idea of him just letting this team roll as it is. After reflecting on it, I felt it was probably the best thing he could have done under the circumstances. But if he was in fact actively shopping and on the verge of a deal to trade Justin Turner.. Then I'd be getting quite a bit more understanding of fans/media criticism, regarding his ability to "feel out" how important a Justin Turner is not only tangibly, but intangibly, to this team. I would think the second bolded sentence would relieve you of the angst expressed in the first bolded sentence.
The fact is that they didn't trade Turner, and this is just one vague anonymous quote from the Miami side. So there's nothing you need to get worked up about here.
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Post by scottysmalls on Aug 3, 2023 11:42:56 GMT -5
Not sure how the Astros trading for Verlander is a brilliant move. They apparently did not want to pay him when they could have resigned him. Now they are paying him and giving up prospects. Reminds me of when everyone thought the Mets and the Padres "won" the off season. As far as the Sox go my guess is the veteran players they decided to keep (Turner, Paxton, Verdugo, Duval) the Sox want to keep next year as well. Bloom very clearly does not want to move top prospects and the large number of Rule 5 bubble types other teams probably aren't offering anything for. Take Dalbec as an example. There are said to be teams who are interested but they probably know he's behind a log jam in Boston and they can probably get him for nothing. The type of player offered for the older Sox prospects who are Rule 5 eligible are probably getting the same type of player in return. They got $57 Million, plus money toward his vesting option. Neither prospect was a top 100 and Gilbert has a FV of 50 (Fangraphs) which is good, but not a projected All Star. In other words, losing him may have hurt a bit, but it will not destroy or even hamstring their future. Most important, they acquired a pitcher whose K% rate went up in June and July while his BB% rate went down and has a second half wOBA of .213 (so far). They clearly believe he can help them win one or two more World Series Championships in the next two years. Gilbert is number 49 on FG number 68 on MLB Pipeline. |
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Post by julyanmorley on Aug 3, 2023 11:44:49 GMT -5
Rafaela > Manzardo, not close imo.
edit: I think national rankings are way too slow to slide guys down rankings. Manzardo is drafted 63rd, rockets up the lists after 400 great PA in 2022, and then barely moves after 300 bad PA in 2023.
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Post by remmartin34 on Aug 3, 2023 11:44:54 GMT -5
I haven't had a chance to look into the details of the Justin Turner leak, but if it turns out that was a deal that almost went through after Bloom and the front office said he was off the table.. and this isn't someone in the Marlins front office just trying to stir up some trouble.. That is BAD looks and vibes for this current 2023 Red Sox team. Paxton to a desperate Dodgers team for a top 50 prospect and a fringe top 100 is one thing (still would have been bad looks if they weren't swinging that for a legit #2 starting pitcher under control). But Turner has been your most clutch hitter, and essentially within half a season in Boston became your de-facto captain, and a mentor to the young guys making significant progress (Duran and Wong in particular). If Bloom was on the verge of trading him on the last day of the deadline, then I'm sorry, but that really makes me start to question his understanding of the game beyond analytics/numbers. .....
I'm not saying that any of this is true. I still hold out faith in the path that Bloom has set this organization on, in order to contend on a yearly basis beginning next year. After initially overreacting BIG TIME to his lack of making a move for a rental starter, I was cool with the idea of him just letting this team roll as it is. After reflecting on it, I felt it was probably the best thing he could have done under the circumstances. But if he was in fact actively shopping and on the verge of a deal to trade Justin Turner.. Then I'd be getting quite a bit more understanding of fans/media criticism, regarding his ability to "feel out" how important a Justin Turner is not only tangibly, but intangibly, to this team. I would think the second bolded sentence would relieve you of the angst expressed in the first bolded sentence.
The fact is that they didn't trade Turner, and this is just one vague anonymous quote from the Miami side. So there's nothing you need to get worked up about here.
Haha I was just about to add that to my original post, regarding the "getting worked up for nothing" and "one anonymous quote" like I did regarding him not trading a Blaze Jordan for Michael Lorenzen on deadline.. It's not the same as Ken Rosenthal saying they were in on Verlander. I honestly think I tied those two up, because they did come out around the same time this morning. The only concern I suppose I really do have around it is what the Red Sox players believe or feel about a rumor like that... who knows, gotta stay positive. Big Maple on the mound tomorrow, I hope he comes out blazing. |
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Post by Guidas on Aug 3, 2023 11:47:37 GMT -5
They got $57 Million, plus money toward his vesting option. Neither prospect was a top 100 and Gilbert has a FV of 50 (Fangraphs) which is good, but not a projected All Star. In other words, losing him may have hurt a bit, but it will not destroy or even hamstring their future. Most important, they acquired a pitcher whose K% rate went up in June and July while his BB% rate went down and has a second half wOBA of .213 (so far). They clearly believe he can help them win one or two more World Series Championships in the next two years. Gilbert is number 49 on FG number 68 on MLB Pipeline. My bad. Either way, he's a 50 prospect, which, I'm guessing, most teams would trade for already good chances at a WS ring to be improved. Sure, it's a risk. Pitchers break. But the Astros are only on the hook now for $24M for 1.3 years of Verlander. Seems like a very reasonable trade given their current position and roster construction. |
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Post by ematz1423 on Aug 3, 2023 11:50:51 GMT -5
Gilbert is number 49 on FG number 68 on MLB Pipeline. My bad. Either way, he's a 50 prospect, which, I'm guessing, most teams would trade for already good chances at a WS ring to be improved. Sure, it's a risk. Pitchers break. But the Astros are only on the hook now for $24M for 1.3 years of Verlander. Seems like a very reasonable trade given their current position and roster construction. The other guy they got has a lot of helium too and some "sources" said they liked him more so than Gilbert so it very easily could end up being two top 100 prospects when the new prospect rankings come out at the end of the year. Not saying I don't get it for the Astros, I'm in agreement the trade makes sense for them but it came at a pretty steep cost. |
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Post by scottysmalls on Aug 3, 2023 11:52:10 GMT -5
Gilbert is number 49 on FG number 68 on MLB Pipeline. My bad. Either way, he's a 50 prospect, which, I'm guessing, most teams would trade for already good chances at a WS ring to be improved. Sure, it's a risk. Pitchers break. But the Astros are only on the hook now for $24M for 1.3 years of Verlander. Seems like a very reasonable trade given their current position and roster construction. Agreed reasonable enough trade for the Astros, especially in comparison to the Montgomery/Giolito deals. Not one I would have wanted the Red Sox to match in their current position though. |
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Post by incandenza on Aug 3, 2023 11:59:53 GMT -5
I would think the second bolded sentence would relieve you of the angst expressed in the first bolded sentence.
The fact is that they didn't trade Turner, and this is just one vague anonymous quote from the Miami side. So there's nothing you need to get worked up about here.
Haha I was just about to add that to my original post, regarding the "getting worked up for nothing" and "one anonymous quote" like I did regarding him not trading a Blaze Jordan for Michael Lorenzen on deadline.. It's not the same as Ken Rosenthal saying they were in on Verlander. I honestly think I tied those two up, because they did come out around the same time this morning. The only concern I suppose I really do have around it is what the Red Sox players believe or feel about a rumor like that... who knows, gotta stay positive. Big Maple on the mound tomorrow, I hope he comes out blazing. Another detail in the McCaffrey/Jennings discussion is that the locker room vibes were good on Wednesday. As in, someone with the team literally said "good vibes today." (Not sure if that lasted past the 7th inning yesterday, but in any case, I think they're just happy the team was kept together and I doubt one media report from an anonymous source in Miami saying that one guy was under consideration for a trade even though he didn't ultimately get traded would change that.) |
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Post by remmartin34 on Aug 3, 2023 12:07:09 GMT -5
Haha I was just about to add that to my original post, regarding the "getting worked up for nothing" and "one anonymous quote" like I did regarding him not trading a Blaze Jordan for Michael Lorenzen on deadline.. It's not the same as Ken Rosenthal saying they were in on Verlander. I honestly think I tied those two up, because they did come out around the same time this morning. The only concern I suppose I really do have around it is what the Red Sox players believe or feel about a rumor like that... who knows, gotta stay positive. Big Maple on the mound tomorrow, I hope he comes out blazing. Another detail in the McCaffrey/Jennings discussion is that the locker room vibes were good on Wednesday. As in, someone with the team literally said "good vibes today." (Not sure if that lasted past the 7th inning yesterday, but in any case, I think they're just happy the team was kept together and I doubt one media report from an anonymous source in Miami saying that one guy was under consideration for a trade even though he didn't ultimately get traded would change that.) Yep. Definitely saw that on Cora's face two days ago even before the Sox took the lead, which I think is very notable. Which I think is absolutely the result of Paxton/Turner/Duvall/Verdugo not getting moved. Especially because his look and the team's vibe after last year's deadline... No bueno. The reality is that another pitcher was not going to change the fact that this is one of the worst defensive teams in baseball, or fix the fact that Bleier can't pitch anywhere close to a clean inning 95% of the time... Just have to be realistic with where they are at, and root for the best. |
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 3, 2023 12:54:51 GMT -5
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Post by manfred on Aug 3, 2023 13:20:29 GMT -5
I find it hard to believe the Rangers didn’t make a big step. They lost de Grom early and now have lost Eovaldi. They could easily spiral… but they added to front line starters. Pretty huge. If Nate comes back healthy, they now have a potentially strong short-series staff.
But overall, yeah, not a big shift. I think the losers (eg the Yankees) did more harm than the winners did good.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 3, 2023 13:21:22 GMT -5
I wonder if Edward Cabrera was dangled in front of Chaim. There was a lot of smoke in regards to that name over the past offseason but I don’t think any of that smoke came from legit sources. A lot of it was speculation. Maybe it would have been a Verdugo and Turner package for something bigger… They just optioned him to AAA, so could have very well been him. I don't think it would have been Verdugo. Part of the reason you can trade Turner is giving the 4 OF full-time ABs and bring up a certain CF in AAA to add D. That makes sense and with getting a pitcher like Cabrera could greatly improve team. Moving two guys makes no sense. Type of deal I would have given Bloom major props if he pulled it off. Can make a case we got a lot better this year and in future. |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Aug 3, 2023 13:25:06 GMT -5
Rafaela > Manzardo, not close imo.
edit: I think national rankings are way too slow to slide guys down rankings. Manzardo is drafted 63rd, rockets up the lists after 400 great PA in 2022, and then barely moves after 300 bad PA in 2023.
Manzardo has to rake to to be a first division starter, Rafaela does not. Rafaela is also hitting better in AAA. I think you’re 100% right |
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Post by incandenza on Aug 3, 2023 13:29:09 GMT -5
So would you guys have traded Rafaela for Civale? That's still a no for me.
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