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2023 Trade Deadline Thread
cdj
Veteran
Posts: 16,000 
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Post by cdj on Aug 7, 2023 15:42:28 GMT -5
Well it’s now august and Eovaldi’s arm is once again dead so I don’t know if that’s the best example
It’s also been documented they offered him a good deal, he just tested the market and the Sox didn’t wait around. Seemed like a miscalculation on both sides tbh- Eovaldi thought he could get more and the Sox thought he would get more. Both wrong.
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Post by notstarboard on Aug 7, 2023 16:13:22 GMT -5
DD also inherited of the greatest young cores the Sox have ever had, while Bloom started with a dead last farm system. You can add value from two places: the farm and in free agency. You can survive dead money if and only if your farm is productive.
Minor league salaries also don't matter for the CBT, so it's not relevant. FSG spent up to and over the CBT threshold throughout the Castillo years.
And at least 29 of 30 owners treat their teams as a business and respect the luxury tax, so it's not really productive to blame FSG for not outdoing all of their competitors year in and year out regardless of how much they make. The Sox are a top 5 franchise in terms of value, but they also nearly always have a payroll in the top 5.
Going over the luxury tax last year was viewed by many as a mistake, but that was the only time Bloom went over. There's not much of a point in going over the tax unless you're going to be a very strong team, though. You might as well maximize your ability to spend when the team is more set up to be competitive, improve your draft picks, have more IFA money available, etc.
Like I said complain about the farm, don't give me crap about money! Example bring back Eovaldi over Kluber, which would have made not trading him a smart move. Dodgers are over for 3rd straight year, Yankees are almost guaranteed to be next year and Mets are going crazy. Last I checked we weren't close to a top 5 spending team. We have Tampa matching contracts for pitchers, rather than going higher! He can go short-term, that's smart, but spend some money and go for it. Get your guys! BTW going over tax line has nothing to do with draft picks unless you go way over or its comp picks. I'm not saying go way over. It has nothing to do with international money, that's signing guys who got QO, not paying luxury tax. The narrative has changed, as I expected it would, it was all about the new CBA discussions. The old days are back. Iirc this is only the second or third season under these owners that the Sox have been out of the top 5 in payroll. Feel free to check me on that - I looked this up for a comment several months ago but I don't have the energy right now. And yes, I was referring to the QO-related benefits, which change based on LT status. Those are relevant in many seasons, including 2021 and 2022, and likely again in 2023. The "way over" penalties are worth keeping an eye on, but not the main point. NYY is in awful shape right now and LAD is able to sustain that only because their farm has been kept topped up. And both are of course bigger markets than Boston; they *should* be spending more. I have no idea what you mean about the narrative. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 7, 2023 16:25:01 GMT -5
Well it’s now august and Eovaldi’s arm is once again dead so I don’t know if that’s the best example It’s also been documented they offered him a good deal, he just tested the market and the Sox didn’t wait around. Seemed like a miscalculation on both sides tbh- Eovaldi thought he could get more and the Sox thought he would get more. Both wrong. There's a 4.9 bwar difference between him and Kluber, 123 innings versus 55 innings. For a difference of $6 million this year. If that's not a good example I don't know what to say to you. 3.4 bwar difference with Zach Eflin for a few million more, say it took 3 year 45 million or 50 million. Bloom went after two huge improvements, yet signed Kluber to the smaller deal. That's his biggest mistake because deadline prices are always crazy, spend the money in the offseason. Those are exactly the type of deals he should be doing compared to Price, Sale and Bogaerts contracts. |
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Post by trajanacc on Aug 7, 2023 16:36:05 GMT -5
From above "I personally think it’s good for teams to not give a damn what the fans think, because the fans are usually clueless " Now that's an attitude filled with hubris. Is the whole point of baseball satisfying the stat geeks and those who think they know it all? Or is the point to build and delight a fan base and put a winning product on the field - esp with a wealthy team, big market team like the Red Sox? It’s not hubris to suggest that hired professionals at extremely competitive jobs know a lot more than the gen pop. This would be true in any field, but especially in one where the financial stakes are so high. Sorry, but fans are clueless compared to these guys. I am, you are. Sure they are going to make some decisions with bad outcomes, but to criticize their process when they have so much more expertise, experience and available information strikes me as…hubris? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 7, 2023 16:38:26 GMT -5
Like I said complain about the farm, don't give me crap about money! Example bring back Eovaldi over Kluber, which would have made not trading him a smart move. Dodgers are over for 3rd straight year, Yankees are almost guaranteed to be next year and Mets are going crazy. Last I checked we weren't close to a top 5 spending team. We have Tampa matching contracts for pitchers, rather than going higher! He can go short-term, that's smart, but spend some money and go for it. Get your guys! BTW going over tax line has nothing to do with draft picks unless you go way over or its comp picks. I'm not saying go way over. It has nothing to do with international money, that's signing guys who got QO, not paying luxury tax. The narrative has changed, as I expected it would, it was all about the new CBA discussions. The old days are back. Iirc this is only the second or third season under these owners that the Sox have been out of the top 5 in payroll. Feel free to check me on that - I looked this up for a comment several months ago but I don't have the energy right now. And yes, I was referring to the QO-related benefits, which change based on LT status. Those are relevant in many seasons, including 2021 and 2022, and likely again in 2023. The "way over" penalties are worth keeping an eye on, but not the main point. NYY is in awful shape right now and LAD is able to sustain that only because their farm has been kept topped up. And both are of course bigger markets than Boston; they *should* be spending more. I have no idea what you mean about the narrative. Seeing 4th, 6th, 6th, and 13th this year. Last year they were 3rd in revenue, so yeah there is a horrible trend and issues. There only that high because of DD players. You are right Dodgers and Yankees are top two in revenue, but there are 11 teams in front of us this year and we're third, not even counting the true NESN money! |
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Post by grandsalami on Aug 7, 2023 16:47:40 GMT -5
Iirc this is only the second or third season under these owners that the Sox have been out of the top 5 in payroll. Feel free to check me on that - I looked this up for a comment several months ago but I don't have the energy right now. And yes, I was referring to the QO-related benefits, which change based on LT status. Those are relevant in many seasons, including 2021 and 2022, and likely again in 2023. The "way over" penalties are worth keeping an eye on, but not the main point. NYY is in awful shape right now and LAD is able to sustain that only because their farm has been kept topped up. And both are of course bigger markets than Boston; they *should* be spending more. I have no idea what you mean about the narrative. Seeing 4th, 6th, 6th, and 13th this year. Last year they were 3rd in revenue, so yeah there is a horrible trend and issues. There only that high because of DD players. You are right Dodgers and Yankees are top two in revenue, but there are 11 teams in front of us this year and we're third, not even counting the true NESN money! and as we all know.. Having a top 5 payroll means guaranteed success for the MLB team... Just ask the Padres and Mets.... Oh wait... this isn't the early 2000's anymore where there were no salary restrains at all... |
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 7, 2023 17:08:28 GMT -5
Seeing 4th, 6th, 6th, and 13th this year. Last year they were 3rd in revenue, so yeah there is a horrible trend and issues. There only that high because of DD players. You are right Dodgers and Yankees are top two in revenue, but there are 11 teams in front of us this year and we're third, not even counting the true NESN money! and as we all know.. Having a top 5 payroll means guaranteed success for the MLB team... Just ask the Padres and Mets.... Oh wait... this isn't the early 2000's anymore where there were no salary restrains at all... You're right. It's much better when you have the budget of the Pirates, A's or Royals. Much better chance of winning. We know throwing money is no guarantee of winning but spending a lot of money wisely for the most part is an advantage. |
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Post by jdb on Aug 7, 2023 17:09:11 GMT -5
Didn’t we offer Eovaldi more money than he eventually got with Texas but we gave him a time limit and then went ahead with the offseason?
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Post by notstarboard on Aug 7, 2023 17:34:01 GMT -5
Iirc this is only the second or third season under these owners that the Sox have been out of the top 5 in payroll. Feel free to check me on that - I looked this up for a comment several months ago but I don't have the energy right now. And yes, I was referring to the QO-related benefits, which change based on LT status. Those are relevant in many seasons, including 2021 and 2022, and likely again in 2023. The "way over" penalties are worth keeping an eye on, but not the main point. NYY is in awful shape right now and LAD is able to sustain that only because their farm has been kept topped up. And both are of course bigger markets than Boston; they *should* be spending more. I have no idea what you mean about the narrative. Seeing 4th, 6th, 6th, and 13th this year. Last year they were 3rd in revenue, so yeah there is a horrible trend and issues. There only that high because of DD players. You are right Dodgers and Yankees are top two in revenue, but there are 11 teams in front of us this year and we're third, not even counting the true NESN money! Idk if you have a better source than this, but this indeed looks like the third year since 2002 that we have been below 5th in payroll, the others being 2003 (6th) and 2022 (6th; looked up elsewhere): www.fueledbysports.com/mlb-payrolls/It's not really a horrible trend. We're within $6 million or so of the CBT, which is where we usually are when we don't go over. It's just that 8 or 9 teams are paying the luxury tax this year, which is a lot more than usual. Do you really think we should be paying the tax this year too? It doesn't make sense to go over for the heck of it when the outlook for 2024 and 2025 looks even rosier and teams typically reset penalties after two seasons of paying the tax. We are not this high because of DD's players. On the contrary, we are being hamstrung by Sale's contract in particular, without which the team might already be good enough to justify going over the CBT. |
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Post by theburn on Aug 7, 2023 17:40:04 GMT -5
Seeing 4th, 6th, 6th, and 13th this year. Last year they were 3rd in revenue, so yeah there is a horrible trend and issues. There only that high because of DD players. You are right Dodgers and Yankees are top two in revenue, but there are 11 teams in front of us this year and we're third, not even counting the true NESN money! and as we all know.. Having a top 5 payroll means guaranteed success for the MLB team... Just ask the Padres and Mets.... Oh wait... this isn't the early 2000's anymore where there were no salary restrains at all... I think most people here aren't advocating that the Red Sox FO spend like drunken sailors. The last 10 World Series winners averaged 8th in total player payroll, according to Spotrac. In these terms, the Red Sox are a good $40 million under that threshold. |
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 7, 2023 17:46:16 GMT -5
Didn’t we offer Eovaldi more money than he eventually got with Texas but we gave him a time limit and then went ahead with the offseason? They did. It would have been nice if they circled back to him but the money was already spent. It's a shame they didnt feel they could go over the limit this year. Its because they went over last year when they didnt have to. I'd rather they ducked under last year instead of this year and made the improvements and still had retained Eovaldi. Would have made the starting pitching, an area they wound up thin. A lot better. Hes hurt now but he would have helped a good deal and left them in a position where they were at least even or ahead of Toronto until he got hurt. Well at least they should be able to go over next season and the following one. They better make the playoffs next year and do some serious damage when there the following year. |
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Post by redsox56 on Aug 7, 2023 19:49:25 GMT -5
That doesn’t even make sense from the White Sox. That’s basically saying they were never going to trade him Unless they got overpaid. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 7, 2023 21:43:19 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 8, 2023 9:36:56 GMT -5
Seeing 4th, 6th, 6th, and 13th this year. Last year they were 3rd in revenue, so yeah there is a horrible trend and issues. There only that high because of DD players. You are right Dodgers and Yankees are top two in revenue, but there are 11 teams in front of us this year and we're third, not even counting the true NESN money! and as we all know.. Having a top 5 payroll means guaranteed success for the MLB team... Just ask the Padres and Mets.... Oh wait... this isn't the early 2000's anymore where there were no salary restrains at all... Come on now, the moves I brought up don't make you a top ten team in spending this year! |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 8, 2023 9:52:31 GMT -5
Seeing 4th, 6th, 6th, and 13th this year. Last year they were 3rd in revenue, so yeah there is a horrible trend and issues. There only that high because of DD players. You are right Dodgers and Yankees are top two in revenue, but there are 11 teams in front of us this year and we're third, not even counting the true NESN money! Idk if you have a better source than this, but this indeed looks like the third year since 2002 that we have been below 5th in payroll, the others being 2003 (6th) and 2022 (6th; looked up elsewhere): www.fueledbysports.com/mlb-payrolls/It's not really a horrible trend. We're within $6 million or so of the CBT, which is where we usually are when we don't go over. It's just that 8 or 9 teams are paying the luxury tax this year, which is a lot more than usual. Do you really think we should be paying the tax this year too? It doesn't make sense to go over for the heck of it when the outlook for 2024 and 2025 looks even rosier and teams typically reset penalties after two seasons of paying the tax. We are not this high because of DD's players. On the contrary, we are being hamstrung by Sale's contract in particular, without which the team might already be good enough to justify going over the CBT. My numbers were Sportrac, which I know isn't 100%, yet does the same thing for every team so it should be fine for comparing yearly payrolls. I've never heard of the site you posted and have no clue about it. Yeah this is the year you go over it makes sense, last year was the mistake and by getting under this year after going over last year he compounded his mistake last year. My point of DD was the earlier years. Things are just going back to normal when a bunch of teams go over and teams stay over. The system is designed for a bunch of teams to be over every year because revenue grows faster than luxury tax line. They want you to go over, just not go crazy like the Mets. We're closer to average payroll than top 5. If you like that plan, you are saying don't use our best resource, which is money. Doing that, puts you in this situation trying to add pitching at the deadline when prices are crazy! Rather than paying a few million extra per year in offseason. |
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Post by notstarboard on Aug 8, 2023 10:20:58 GMT -5
Idk if you have a better source than this, but this indeed looks like the third year since 2002 that we have been below 5th in payroll, the others being 2003 (6th) and 2022 (6th; looked up elsewhere): www.fueledbysports.com/mlb-payrolls/It's not really a horrible trend. We're within $6 million or so of the CBT, which is where we usually are when we don't go over. It's just that 8 or 9 teams are paying the luxury tax this year, which is a lot more than usual. Do you really think we should be paying the tax this year too? It doesn't make sense to go over for the heck of it when the outlook for 2024 and 2025 looks even rosier and teams typically reset penalties after two seasons of paying the tax. We are not this high because of DD's players. On the contrary, we are being hamstrung by Sale's contract in particular, without which the team might already be good enough to justify going over the CBT. My numbers were Sportrac, which I know isn't 100%, yet does the same thing for every team so it should be fine for comparing yearly payrolls. I've never heard of the site you posted and have no clue about it. Yeah this is the year you go over it makes sense, last year was the mistake and by getting under this year after going over last year he compounded his mistake last year. My point of DD was the earlier years. Things are just going back to normal when a bunch of teams go over and teams stay over. The system is designed for a bunch of teams to be over every year because revenue grows faster than luxury tax line. They want you to go over, just not go crazy like the Mets. We're closer to average payroll than top 5. If you like that plan, you are saying don't use our best resource, which is money. Doing that, puts you in this situation trying to add pitching at the deadline when prices are crazy! Rather than paying a few million extra per year in offseason. The current LT system is based on the 2002 CBA. From 2003-2021, there were 45 instances of a team paying the luxury tax. That's an average of 2.4 teams per year, or only 1.5 teams per year not named NYY. Boston went over the second most during that span: NYY: 17 BOS: 10 LAD: 6 CHC: 3 DET: 3 SFG: 3 WSH: 2 HOU: 1 LAA: 1 PHI: 1 Last year I think 6 teams paid the tax. The previous high was 5 in 2017. This year it's 8 or 9. More teams have been going over the CBT as time goes on, and even then this year is a clear high water mark. This may be a new normal with the extra wild card slot, but it certainly isn't a return to normal. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_luxury_tax#History |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 8, 2023 12:05:49 GMT -5
My numbers were Sportrac, which I know isn't 100%, yet does the same thing for every team so it should be fine for comparing yearly payrolls. I've never heard of the site you posted and have no clue about it. Yeah this is the year you go over it makes sense, last year was the mistake and by getting under this year after going over last year he compounded his mistake last year. My point of DD was the earlier years. Things are just going back to normal when a bunch of teams go over and teams stay over. The system is designed for a bunch of teams to be over every year because revenue grows faster than luxury tax line. They want you to go over, just not go crazy like the Mets. We're closer to average payroll than top 5. If you like that plan, you are saying don't use our best resource, which is money. Doing that, puts you in this situation trying to add pitching at the deadline when prices are crazy! Rather than paying a few million extra per year in offseason. The current LT system is based on the 2002 CBA. From 2003-2021, there were 45 instances of a team paying the luxury tax. That's an average of 2.4 teams per year, or only 1.5 teams per year not named NYY. Boston went over the second most during that span: NYY: 17 BOS: 10 LAD: 6 CHC: 3 DET: 3 SFG: 3 WSH: 2 HOU: 1 LAA: 1 PHI: 1 Last year I think 6 teams paid the tax. The previous high was 5 in 2017. This year it's 8 or 9. More teams have been going over the CBT as time goes on, and even then this year is a clear high water mark. This may be a new normal with the extra wild card slot, but it certainly isn't a return to normal. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_luxury_tax#HistoryCome on now, you can do better! You're including the period when no one went over to protest the new CBA and it skews the results. Take that out and it's exactly as I said. Yeah this is a new normal because of years of the luxury tax not adjusting as much as revenue does. This crazy idea we have to reset, that all came from last CBA and was because big market teams got sick and tired of small market teams always getting more and more. So they stopped spending and look what happened, last CBA was all about players getting more. It worked perfectly. |
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Post by notstarboard on Aug 8, 2023 12:51:33 GMT -5
The current LT system is based on the 2002 CBA. From 2003-2021, there were 45 instances of a team paying the luxury tax. That's an average of 2.4 teams per year, or only 1.5 teams per year not named NYY. Boston went over the second most during that span: NYY: 17 BOS: 10 LAD: 6 CHC: 3 DET: 3 SFG: 3 WSH: 2 HOU: 1 LAA: 1 PHI: 1 Last year I think 6 teams paid the tax. The previous high was 5 in 2017. This year it's 8 or 9. More teams have been going over the CBT as time goes on, and even then this year is a clear high water mark. This may be a new normal with the extra wild card slot, but it certainly isn't a return to normal. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_luxury_tax#HistoryCome on now, you can do better! You're including the period when no one went over to protest the new CBA and it skews the results. Take that out and it's exactly as I said. Yeah this is a new normal because of years of the luxury tax not adjusting as much as revenue does. This crazy idea we have to reset, that all came from last CBA and was because big market teams got sick and tired of small market teams always getting more and more. So they stopped spending and look what happened, last CBA was all about players getting more. It worked perfectly. All of what you're alleging is news to me. It seems very strange that almost the entire league would decide to throw for a few decades to protest an agreement they themselves made, so you'll have to source that. |
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Post by danredhawk on Aug 8, 2023 13:09:58 GMT -5
From above "I personally think it’s good for teams to not give a damn what the fans think, because the fans are usually clueless " Now that's an attitude filled with hubris. Is the whole point of baseball satisfying the stat geeks and those who think they know it all? Or is the point to build and delight a fan base and put a winning product on the field - esp with a wealthy team, big market team like the Red Sox? It’s not hubris to suggest that hired professionals at extremely competitive jobs know a lot more than the gen pop. This would be true in any field, but especially in one where the financial stakes are so high. Sorry, but fans are clueless compared to these guys. I am, you are. Sure they are going to make some decisions with bad outcomes, but to criticize their process when they have so much more expertise, experience and available information strikes me as…hubris? Unfortunately, they are not competing against - or being judged relative to - an uninformed fan base. I’m sure beating me in fantasy baseball would be a nice feather in Bloom’s cap, but it’d be nice to see him have more success as a hired professional in his high financial stakes environment, tbh… |
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Post by KoreaSoxFan on Sept 1, 2023 15:44:30 GMT -5
x.com/pgammo/status/1697703620127359159?s=46&t=umto4vLIkAttD6fQr-_QMw"Of course the Red Sox needed a starting pitcher at the deadline. Their starters have averaged 4.7 IP per outing, 3d worst in MLB. Quality start% 28%, 5th worst. GS more than 4 days rest-6th most. Offering Paxton to Dodgers for Emmet Sheehan&2 other top kids would never happen"
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