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2023 Trade Deadline Thread
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Post by incandenza on Aug 7, 2023 8:59:44 GMT -5
Maddening article. Rosenthal has a quirk as a writer of opening an essay with some form of "Granted, the premises of the argument I'm about to make are fundamentally flawed. Nevertheless..." To wit:
And if you're going to evaluate the team's trade deadline you might want to mention *the single biggest move they made*, the acquisition of a second baseman with multiple years of control which shored up their weakest position. Rosenthal never does.
Does any other team get so heavily criticized for taking the bog-standard approach for teams with marginal playoff chances of making only marginal moves at the trade deadline?
He clearly mentions Urias “and acquiring a right-handed hitting infielder, Luis Urias.” I think Urias is fine, but there’s a reason he was available for peanuts and the Sox got him for next to nothing. I think he did a really good job of highlighting Bloom’s hits while focusing on the fact this is his second deadline he’s (to this point) miscalculated. If you have an issue with this article it sure seems like you’d have an issue with anything short of near universal praise. My bad - he breezed past it so dismissively I missed it: And no, I do not have an issue "with anything short of near universal praise." I mildly criticized the trade deadline approach myself in the gameday thread yesterday. (And fyi, telling me that I refuse to criticize Bloom when I've done so many times is a good way to get a block from me.)
What I have an issue with is criticism of the front office that fails to acknowledge the broader context they're operating in. For Rosenthal it's a big mystery why Bloom didn't add significant pitching help. There's a case to be made that they should have; but that case has to start from acknowledging that the Red Sox are getting multiple starters back from the IL as soon as this week; that it was a seller's market for pitching; that pitching has actually been a relative strength of the team for months; and that their playoff odds were fairly marginal and there is just nothing remarkable at all about a team with marginal playoff odds not doing that much at the deadline.
A good criticsm of the team's trade deadline activity would be to note that they were in a position to do something more creative like they did last season, when they both improved the roster and added prospects (with the bonus that in 2023 they could have done this while staying under the luxury tax threshold). Instead Rosenthal criticized the 2022 deadline as even worse ("At least Bloom did not go halfway the way he did last season...").
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Post by fenwaydouble on Aug 7, 2023 9:29:43 GMT -5
The Red Sox, especially Bloom and Henry, are still in the media’s dog house for the Mookie trade. People hate what that trade represented, and they want Boston to fail because of it. It’s the only explanation for why we continue to get “what is Bloom even doing?  ” stories constantly when the logic of his plan has always been very easy to see. |
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briam
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Posts: 1,224
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Post by briam on Aug 7, 2023 9:36:39 GMT -5
He clearly mentions Urias “and acquiring a right-handed hitting infielder, Luis Urias.” I think Urias is fine, but there’s a reason he was available for peanuts and the Sox got him for next to nothing. I think he did a really good job of highlighting Bloom’s hits while focusing on the fact this is his second deadline he’s (to this point) miscalculated. If you have an issue with this article it sure seems like you’d have an issue with anything short of near universal praise. My bad - he breezed past it so dismissively I missed it: And no, I do not have an issue "with anything short of near universal praise." I mildly criticized the trade deadline approach myself in the gameday thread yesterday. (And fyi, telling me that I refuse to criticize Bloom when I've done so many times is a good way to get a block from me.)
What I have an issue with is criticism of the front office that fails to acknowledge the broader context they're operating in. For Rosenthal it's a big mystery why Bloom didn't add significant pitching help. There's a case to be made that they should have; but that case has to start from acknowledging that the Red Sox are getting multiple starters back from the IL as soon as this week; that it was a seller's market for pitching; that pitching has actually been a relative strength of the team for months; and that their playoff odds were fairly marginal and there is just nothing remarkable at all about a team with marginal playoff odds not doing that much at the deadline.
A good criticsm of the team's trade deadline activity would be to note that they were in a position to do something more creative like they did last season, when they both improved the roster and added prospects (with the bonus that in 2023 they could have done this while staying under the luxury tax threshold). Instead Rosenthal criticized the 2022 deadline as even worse ("At least Bloom did not go halfway the way he did last season...").
I think the last paragraph sums up the point Rosenthal is trying to make. Bloom is running out of time to keep playing the patient game, eventually he’s going to have to make some difficult decisions and push some chips in. The last two deadlines were opportunities to pick a direction and he punted on both, that type of decision won’t be justifiable moving forward when they keep missing the playoffs. |
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Post by julyanmorley on Aug 7, 2023 9:54:52 GMT -5
When a team is 5 games out of the third wild card, and 13 games out of a top two seed, it's a poor time to lament that they didn't mortgage the future to try and put the team over the top.
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Post by manfred on Aug 7, 2023 9:59:22 GMT -5
When a team is 5 games out of the third wild card, and 13 games out of a top two seed, it's a poor time to lament that they didn't mortgage the future to try and put the team over the top. I don’t see anyone advocating that. I guess there was talk of Bonaci… hardly the future. But further: they were not in that position at the deadline, so it is a bit unfair. And I think part of the frustration is that at the deadline the argument was they are too close to sell… now it is ridiculous that they should have bought. That leaves… just play it out with a last place team? Like the captain of the Titanic saying f’ it, straight ahead, gents! |
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Post by chaimtime on Aug 7, 2023 10:11:50 GMT -5
Maddening article. Rosenthal has a quirk as a writer of opening an essay with some form of "Granted, the premises of the argument I'm about to make are fundamentally flawed. Nevertheless..." To wit:
And if you're going to evaluate the team's trade deadline you might want to mention *the single biggest move they made*, the acquisition of a second baseman with multiple years of control which shored up their weakest position. Rosenthal never does.
Does any other team get so heavily criticized for taking the bog-standard approach for teams with marginal playoff chances of making only marginal moves at the trade deadline?
Ken is usually as good as it gets but his main complaint here seems to be that the eggheads have won out and the statistical methods that he doesn’t understand matter more to teams than whatever romantic baseball narrative the average fan has built their fandom around. I personally think it’s good for teams to not give a damn what the fans think, because the fans are usually clueless. I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about the deadline strategy, they decided that they trusted the guys who have been performing for months to carry them for the next week or two while everyone gets healthy over the cheap rentals on the market. They wanted a difference-maker and, like most teams looking for one, came up empty, because controllable difference-makers are very difficult to trade for in the middle of the season. |
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Post by chaimtime on Aug 7, 2023 10:17:52 GMT -5
My bad - he breezed past it so dismissively I missed it: And no, I do not have an issue "with anything short of near universal praise." I mildly criticized the trade deadline approach myself in the gameday thread yesterday. (And fyi, telling me that I refuse to criticize Bloom when I've done so many times is a good way to get a block from me.)
What I have an issue with is criticism of the front office that fails to acknowledge the broader context they're operating in. For Rosenthal it's a big mystery why Bloom didn't add significant pitching help. There's a case to be made that they should have; but that case has to start from acknowledging that the Red Sox are getting multiple starters back from the IL as soon as this week; that it was a seller's market for pitching; that pitching has actually been a relative strength of the team for months; and that their playoff odds were fairly marginal and there is just nothing remarkable at all about a team with marginal playoff odds not doing that much at the deadline.
A good criticsm of the team's trade deadline activity would be to note that they were in a position to do something more creative like they did last season, when they both improved the roster and added prospects (with the bonus that in 2023 they could have done this while staying under the luxury tax threshold). Instead Rosenthal criticized the 2022 deadline as even worse ("At least Bloom did not go halfway the way he did last season...").
I think the last paragraph sums up the point Rosenthal is trying to make. Bloom is running out of time to keep playing the patient game, eventually he’s going to have to make some difficult decisions and push some chips in. The last two deadlines were opportunities to pick a direction and he punted on both, that type of decision won’t be justifiable moving forward when they keep missing the playoffs. Trading Christian Vazquez made the team better. If grown men are gonna quit on the team because their friend got beaten out by better, younger players then I can see why the front office didn’t push the boat out to keep them around. |
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briam
Veteran
Posts: 1,224
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Post by briam on Aug 7, 2023 10:42:21 GMT -5
I think the last paragraph sums up the point Rosenthal is trying to make. Bloom is running out of time to keep playing the patient game, eventually he’s going to have to make some difficult decisions and push some chips in. The last two deadlines were opportunities to pick a direction and he punted on both, that type of decision won’t be justifiable moving forward when they keep missing the playoffs. Trading Christian Vazquez made the team better. If grown men are gonna quit on the team because their friend got beaten out by better, younger players then I can see why the front office didn’t push the boat out to keep them around. I don’t have an issue with the Vazquez trade, the issue is just playing on the margins while the team continues to sit outside of the playoffs. Either buy in a meaningful way or sell in a meaningful way. Either cash in some prospect capital for a legitimate upgrade or sell the short term guys so you are getting more than watered down or traditional comp picks. |
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jimoh
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Posts: 4,233 
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Post by jimoh on Aug 7, 2023 10:57:37 GMT -5
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Post by chaimtime on Aug 7, 2023 11:01:21 GMT -5
Trading Christian Vazquez made the team better. If grown men are gonna quit on the team because their friend got beaten out by better, younger players then I can see why the front office didn’t push the boat out to keep them around. I don’t have an issue with the Vazquez trade, the issue is just playing on the margins while the team continues to sit outside of the playoffs. Either buy in a meaningful way or sell in a meaningful way. Either cash in some prospect capital for a legitimate upgrade or sell the short term guys so you are getting more than watered down or traditional comp picks. Where else can they play with the roster? When your $30 million/year ace can’t pitch 150 innings over the course of 4 seasons it makes it hard to find value anywhere other than the margins. Getting absolutely nothing from Price and Sale post-2019 has been a huge weight around their neck for most of Bloom’s tenure. And for all the handwringing about using Mookie to dump the Price contract, I’m skeptical they make the playoffs in 2021 without doing it. |
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Post by nonothing on Aug 7, 2023 11:13:56 GMT -5
Trading Christian Vazquez made the team better. If grown men are gonna quit on the team because their friend got beaten out by better, younger players then I can see why the front office didn’t push the boat out to keep them around. I don’t have an issue with the Vazquez trade, the issue is just playing on the margins while the team continues to sit outside of the playoffs. Either buy in a meaningful way or sell in a meaningful way. Either cash in some prospect capital for a legitimate upgrade or sell the short term guys so you are getting more than watered down or traditional comp picks. And you could even do both -- if you were trading a guy like Duvall or Turner in a deal that would make the pitching materially better this year, while bringing up your top AAA prospect to also help the pitching with defense, making thr present team better on the whole, as well as improving the future outlook. Counting on guys pitching out of their minds better than their predictive avgs should be the *last* thing a data-oriented front office should do. They should *know* that Pivetta and Murphy couldn't give up no runs forever. They have been heroic for weeks -- and hopefully they feel great about that. But reward your heroes with help so they can continue to perform as well as is reasonable. The way to keep your team performing at a high level is to support them -- not keep throwing more and more weight on their shoulders until they break. If they are doing math -- those should be inputs into the equation. They did selective math that was poor. So I agree -- they didn't need to do a lot to buy -- but either buy what you need (whether you also sell a piece in that process or not) -- or really sell. I can tell you they are now offering playoff seats this year to people who will buy season tickets for next year. That means they are desperate for people to care about the team. If that was true -- somebody needed to tell Chaim to overpay for pitching because they don't have enough fan interest to fund seats at all time high prices to see this team. Bullpen games don't sell seats and they don't get you to the playoffs. They are a temporary stopgap solution that is necessary at times. But you can't do it for months. If you weren't going to buy -- they should have sold. |
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 7, 2023 11:22:09 GMT -5
The Red Sox, especially Bloom and Henry, are still in the media’s dog house for the Mookie trade. People hate what that trade represented, and they want Boston to fail because of it. It’s the only explanation for why we continue to get “what is Bloom even doing? ” stories constantly when the logic of his plan has always been very easy to see. At the same time, you have to admit that there are some things that Bloom has done that are very questionable. Not selling last year or not choosing to sell or buy this year. That has zero to do with Mookie. If you're talking about Felger and Mazz, you know the deal there. Negativity equals ratings. As far as FA its been very hit and miss. Love what hes done with the farm, which is good because that is the main goal of the organization. But yes just because people don't like something about what Bloom has done doesn't mean that they are "haters". |
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 7, 2023 11:29:16 GMT -5
I don’t have an issue with the Vazquez trade, the issue is just playing on the margins while the team continues to sit outside of the playoffs. Either buy in a meaningful way or sell in a meaningful way. Either cash in some prospect capital for a legitimate upgrade or sell the short term guys so you are getting more than watered down or traditional comp picks. And you could even do both -- if you were trading a guy like Duvall or Turner in a deal that would make the pitching materially better this year, while bringing up your top AAA prospect to also help the pitching with defense, making thr present team better on the whole, as well as improving the future outlook. Counting on guys pitching out of their minds better than their predictive avgs should be the *last* thing a data-oriented front office should do. They should *know* that Pivetta and Murphy couldn't give up no runs forever. They have been heroic for weeks -- and hopefully they feel great about that. But reward your heroes with help so they can continue to perform as well as is reasonable. The way to keep your team performing at a high level is to support them -- not keep throwing more and more weight on their shoulders until they break. If they are doing math -- those should be inputs into the equation. They did selective math that was poor. So I agree -- they didn't need to do a lot to buy -- but either buy what you need (whether you also sell a piece in that process or not) -- or really sell. I can tell you they are now offering playoff seats this year to people who will buy season tickets for next year. That means they are desperate for people to care about the team. If that was true -- somebody needed to tell Chaim to overpay for pitching because they don't have enough fan interest to fund seats at all time high prices to see this team. Bullpen games don't sell seats and they don't get you to the playoffs. They are a temporary stopgap solution that is necessary at times. But you can't do it for months. If you weren't going to buy -- they should have sold. They might not be worried about dwindling attendance. The plan for the Redsox is not win a World Series every year at all costs anymore. Those days are dead. The goal now is to eventually make the playoffs every year and see where it goes while having a strong sustainable farm system. If they don't win a title then its okay as long as that young pipeline stays loaded. |
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briam
Veteran
Posts: 1,224
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Post by briam on Aug 7, 2023 11:34:38 GMT -5
I don’t have an issue with the Vazquez trade, the issue is just playing on the margins while the team continues to sit outside of the playoffs. Either buy in a meaningful way or sell in a meaningful way. Either cash in some prospect capital for a legitimate upgrade or sell the short term guys so you are getting more than watered down or traditional comp picks. Where else can they play with the roster? When your $30 million/year ace can’t pitch 150 innings over the course of 4 seasons it makes it hard to find value anywhere other than the margins. Getting absolutely nothing from Price and Sale post-2019 has been a huge weight around their neck for most of Bloom’s tenure. And for all the handwringing about using Mookie to dump the Price contract, I’m skeptical they make the playoffs in 2021 without doing it. We are in year 4 and this roster is almost entirely Bloom’s at this point. If Sale and his dead money make or break the year than Bloom didn’t do his job. |
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Post by notstarboard on Aug 7, 2023 11:46:11 GMT -5
Trading Christian Vazquez made the team better. If grown men are gonna quit on the team because their friend got beaten out by better, younger players then I can see why the front office didn’t push the boat out to keep them around. I don’t have an issue with the Vazquez trade, the issue is just playing on the margins while the team continues to sit outside of the playoffs. Either buy in a meaningful way or sell in a meaningful way. Either cash in some prospect capital for a legitimate upgrade or sell the short term guys so you are getting more than watered down or traditional comp picks. Is a middle path ever justifiable to you? |
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Post by chaimtime on Aug 7, 2023 11:48:02 GMT -5
Where else can they play with the roster? When your $30 million/year ace can’t pitch 150 innings over the course of 4 seasons it makes it hard to find value anywhere other than the margins. Getting absolutely nothing from Price and Sale post-2019 has been a huge weight around their neck for most of Bloom’s tenure. And for all the handwringing about using Mookie to dump the Price contract, I’m skeptical they make the playoffs in 2021 without doing it. We are in gear 4 and this roster is almost entirely Bloom’s at this point. If Sale and his dead money make or break the year than Bloom didn’t do his job. I guess I just don’t understand how you can have a serious conversation about the team building strategy over the past few years without taking into account the fact that the highest paid player on the team, whose contract predates the GM, has provided basically zero value for the entirety of his tenure. $29 million is a lot of money! It’s 1/8th of the luxury tax threshold. And it’s not even all of the dead money he’s been dealing with! |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 7, 2023 11:58:12 GMT -5
We are in gear 4 and this roster is almost entirely Bloom’s at this point. If Sale and his dead money make or break the year than Bloom didn’t do his job. I guess I just don’t understand how you can have a serious conversation about the team building strategy over the past few years without taking into account the fact that the highest paid player on the team, whose contract predates the GM, has provided basically zero value for the entirety of his tenure. $29 million is a lot of money! It’s 1/8th of the luxury tax threshold. And it’s not even all of the dead money he’s been dealing with! For comparison DD had Hanley, Pablo and Pedroia dead money for years, nevermind Craig and Castillo in minors earning bank. Complain about the farm, but we have plenty of money and could easily go over luxury tax line every year and our Owner would still be making a killing. Bloom hasn't used that money, he goes over by a tiny amount after a reset. Which is kinda crazy given most of his deals are short one and two year deals. Example this year, extra starter you have Houck or Whitlock in pen, who then can start for you. If you're the Red Sox GM and stay under the tax line most years, you aren't using your biggest asset which is tons of money! |
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 7, 2023 12:06:35 GMT -5
From above
"I personally think it’s good for teams to not give a damn what the fans think, because the fans are usually clueless "
Now that's an attitude filled with hubris. Is the whole point of baseball satisfying the stat geeks and those who think they know it all? Or is the point to build and delight a fan base and put a winning product on the field - esp with a wealthy team, big market team like the Red Sox?
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Post by grandsalami on Aug 7, 2023 12:08:08 GMT -5
From above "I personally think it’s good for teams to not give a damn what the fans think, because the fans are usually clueless " Now that's an attitude filled with hubris. Is the whole point of baseball satisfying the stat geeks and those who think they know it all? Or is the point to build and delight a fan base and put a winning product on the field - esp with a wealthy team, big market team like the Red Sox? Lets ask the Mets... who spent almost the GDP of a small country in the offseason, and ended up being sellers |
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Post by grandsalami on Aug 7, 2023 12:09:25 GMT -5
which proves my point that it does not matter if you buy or sell.... |
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Post by nonothing on Aug 7, 2023 12:09:37 GMT -5
And you could even do both -- if you were trading a guy like Duvall or Turner in a deal that would make the pitching materially better this year, while bringing up your top AAA prospect to also help the pitching with defense, making thr present team better on the whole, as well as improving the future outlook. Counting on guys pitching out of their minds better than their predictive avgs should be the *last* thing a data-oriented front office should do. They should *know* that Pivetta and Murphy couldn't give up no runs forever. They have been heroic for weeks -- and hopefully they feel great about that. But reward your heroes with help so they can continue to perform as well as is reasonable. The way to keep your team performing at a high level is to support them -- not keep throwing more and more weight on their shoulders until they break. If they are doing math -- those should be inputs into the equation. They did selective math that was poor. So I agree -- they didn't need to do a lot to buy -- but either buy what you need (whether you also sell a piece in that process or not) -- or really sell. I can tell you they are now offering playoff seats this year to people who will buy season tickets for next year. That means they are desperate for people to care about the team. If that was true -- somebody needed to tell Chaim to overpay for pitching because they don't have enough fan interest to fund seats at all time high prices to see this team. Bullpen games don't sell seats and they don't get you to the playoffs. They are a temporary stopgap solution that is necessary at times. But you can't do it for months. If you weren't going to buy -- they should have sold. They might not be worried about dwindling attendance. The plan for the Redsox is not win a World Series every year at all costs anymore. Those days are dead. The goal now is to eventually make the playoffs every year and see where it goes while having a strong sustainable farm system. If they don't win a title then its okay as long as that young pipeline stays loaded. I agree with you about their LT team vision goal, but they are definitely worried about attendance. They are reaching out aggressively, which means somebody told the reps to care. |
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Post by nonothing on Aug 7, 2023 12:12:00 GMT -5
which proves my point that it does not matter if you buy or sell.... ??It does not matter if you buy or sell?? So... is the whole roster immaterial, and the wins and losses are handed out, and the whole thing is a conspiracy? |
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briam
Veteran
Posts: 1,224
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Post by briam on Aug 7, 2023 12:12:35 GMT -5
I don’t have an issue with the Vazquez trade, the issue is just playing on the margins while the team continues to sit outside of the playoffs. Either buy in a meaningful way or sell in a meaningful way. Either cash in some prospect capital for a legitimate upgrade or sell the short term guys so you are getting more than watered down or traditional comp picks. Is a middle path ever justifiable to you? For sure, if they would’ve sold one of JD/Eovaldi with their acquisitions of Pham and Hosmer I’d been more than content. Rearranging furniture on the titanic though is never a good move, and that’s what the last two years have been IMO. Just IMO of course. |
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Post by grandsalami on Aug 7, 2023 12:19:26 GMT -5
which proves my point that it does not matter if you buy or sell.... ??It does not matter if you buy or sell?? So... is the whole roster immaterial, and the wins and losses are handed out, and the whole thing is a conspiracy? sorry, was not clear... the whole media narrative that the sox Clubhouse is "pissed" that they did not make any "BIG" moves at the trade deadline, and thats why they are playing like dog poop |
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 7, 2023 12:21:14 GMT -5
Is a middle path ever justifiable to you? For sure, if they would’ve sold one of JD/Eovaldi with their acquisitions of Pham and Hosmer I’d been more than content. Rearranging furniture on the titanic though is never a good move, and that’s what the last two years have been IMO. Just IMO of course. Accurate. Honestly the most damning offseason for Bloom was last year. Coming off a playoff run that almost resulted in a WS appearance, instead of improving of the Major League roster they willingly took a couple steps back and went into the season with no right fielder or first baseman. I understand that Dalbec was coming off a run in the 2nd half where he looked like he was the guy, but for a guy who likes versatility, his mistake was not getting Hosmer in the offseason and waiting until he was free. They went over the tax anyways thus making it even more moronic. Bloom took on JBJ to get two marginal prospects and then stopped. The building of the MLB team has been overall terrible. But again thats not the product we should be watching. In 2025, I have no doubt this team will be very fun to watch and attendance will go back up. No one in the city cares about this team anymore. People are waiting for the Celtics season to start. A good start to getting fans back if they really wanted to do so is lowering ticket prices. Its not going to happen but it makes sense. |
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” stories constantly when the logic of his plan has always been very easy to see. 
