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Post by trajanacc on Aug 6, 2023 10:14:42 GMT -5
I don't think they were immature or pathetic, but you can read many articles and comments from players(Xander) who questioned the move and felt like they got nothing in return. Also I don't know if you're trying to rehash the whole buy sell deadline last year, but I've consistently said I liked last years deadline overall. So the whole first two sentences feel out of place and unnecessary to my post. Also I never said Turner was not valuable on the field, was just pointing out how trading a DH can make many feel like the season is being punted on due to off the field reasons. My points about Turner were responding to the parts of redsoxpride34's comment that I bolded. My points about last season were just responding to the part of your comment I bolded. I don't mean to disagree with your broader point that Turner has a lot of value for this year's team; I'd only say that keeping him is more than defensible solely for on-the-field reasons, and the leadership/clubhouse stuff is just a bonus (though it's always sort of a hazy concept that's hard for any of us to judge from the outside). I agree that the leadership/clubhouse stuff is extremely hard to judge, or use for prediction/analysis. There’s no data to rely on, it’s basically just hearsay from people around the clubhouse and maybe quotes from players. Or if we as fans see a player look a certain way on camera we assume “great guy, leader, tries hard” off of very limited evidence. Especially if that guy is a vet with a nice beard. But who knows if it’s even true—or if it is true, to what degree does it predict team success? |
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 6, 2023 11:18:47 GMT -5
Kind of interesting how this team has been dropping games since Rosenthal mentioned Turner was almost traded to Miami. Turner for someone like Cabrera would have been a good trade long term but you can't tell players they're safe then still talk deals about them after the fact. Yes its only been 3 games but they've looked dead out there.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 6, 2023 11:20:27 GMT -5
Nomar was not the heartbeat of that 2004 team, as a matter of fact he seemed pretty disgruntled in his last stretch here I was at that game in NYC when Nomar "wouldn't play" and Pokey Reese started at SS. It was the "Jeter catch" game, which was a media-created fraud. Reece had a superior catch in the same game. Jeter caught the ball on the field then ran into the stands. Pokey dove into the stands then caught the ball while Yankee fans were trying to swat it away. But NYY won and the NY media canonized Jeter. Again. Yeah Nomar was more or less a malcontent by July. If I remember everything correctly the FO didn't want to hand him a massive extension which caused Nomar to become bitter at the FO. They needed to deal him in order to win. Very different scenarios |
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Post by manfred on Aug 6, 2023 11:30:09 GMT -5
With the caveat that obviously one trades anyone if the win is clear, I don’t see any logic in trading Turner and have zero beef with FO not doing so. This team is lefty heavy, he’s one of their most consistent guys, he’s proven to be versatile defensively, and he seems like a good dude.
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Post by Smittyw on Aug 6, 2023 11:34:56 GMT -5
Kind of interesting how this team has been dropping games since Rosenthal mentioned Turner was almost traded to Miami. Turner for someone like Cabrera would have been a good trade long term but you can't tell players they're safe then still talk deals about them after the fact. Yes its only been 3 games but they've looked dead out there. If guys are moping about trades that didn’t even happen (not saying this is or isn't true, but it's been a theory about Verdugo's struggles as well), then they need to grow up. Not feeling in the mood for these lame excuses for a second year in a row. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 6, 2023 12:01:39 GMT -5
Kind of interesting how this team has been dropping games since Rosenthal mentioned Turner was almost traded to Miami. Turner for someone like Cabrera would have been a good trade long term but you can't tell players they're safe then still talk deals about them after the fact. Yes its only been 3 games but they've looked dead out there. If guys are moping about trades that didn’t even happen (not saying this is or isn't true, but it's been a theory about Verdugo's struggles as well), then they need to grow up. Not feeling in the mood for these lame excuses for a second year in a row. Absolutely, if that's the case this team needs a new culture and a bunch of new leader types. In reality this team is streaky, got red hot and was always going to cool off at some point. Let's hope it's short and they go on another tear any day now. |
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 6, 2023 12:06:19 GMT -5
Kind of interesting how this team has been dropping games since Rosenthal mentioned Turner was almost traded to Miami. Turner for someone like Cabrera would have been a good trade long term but you can't tell players they're safe then still talk deals about them after the fact. Yes its only been 3 games but they've looked dead out there. If guys are moping about trades that didn’t even happen (not saying this is or isn't true, but it's been a theory about Verdugo's struggles as well), then they need to grow up. Not feeling in the mood for these lame excuses for a second year in a row. I agree. But I get it though. You tell someone they aren't going anywhere then a couple days later you're close to trading that same guy. Its kind of messed up. But it shouldn't cause stuff like this to happen. But I think Bloom does have to learn that dealing with humans has some consequences that computers can't anticipate. |
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Post by greekgodofpancakes on Aug 6, 2023 14:36:03 GMT -5
Can we all just admit standing pat is never the best option? Sell and we would be fine with the current losing streak. Buy and people would say we would not be on the losing streak. Standing pat kinda sucks!!!
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Post by julyanmorley on Aug 6, 2023 14:38:08 GMT -5
If we traded Brainer Bonaci for Michael Lorenzen we would still be on the losing streak except we'd no longer have Brainer Bonaci
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Post by trajanacc on Aug 6, 2023 14:57:27 GMT -5
Can we all just admit standing pat is never the best option? Sell and we would be fine with the current losing streak. Buy and people would say we would not be on the losing streak. Standing pat kinda sucks!!! Isn’t “buying” and then losing the worst possible outcome? Obviously we could still lose a bunch of games and not make the playoffs no matter what moves we made. Look at San Diego’s season. Standing pat can work great if you already have a decent team and think you can improve enough internally to compete without having to sacrifice future wins (prospects). |
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Post by trajanacc on Aug 6, 2023 15:02:05 GMT -5
Can we all just admit standing pat is never the best option? Sell and we would be fine with the current losing streak. Buy and people would say we would not be on the losing streak. Standing pat kinda sucks!!! Isn’t “buying” and then losing the worst possible outcome? Obviously we could still lose a bunch of games and not make the playoffs no matter what moves we made. Look at San Diego’s season. Standing pat can work great if you already have a decent team and think you can improve enough internally to compete without having to sacrifice future wins (prospects). |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Aug 6, 2023 17:10:13 GMT -5
Can we all just admit standing pat is never the best option? Sell and we would be fine with the current losing streak. Buy and people would say we would not be on the losing streak. Standing pat kinda sucks!!! Isn’t “buying” and then losing the worst possible outcome? Obviously we could still lose a bunch of games and not make the playoffs no matter what moves we made. Look at San Diego’s season. Standing pat can work great if you already have a decent team and think you can improve enough internally to compete without having to sacrifice future wins (prospects). They did most of what I wanted them to do- they bought for 2024 I would’ve liked them to sell off one of the OF but on second thought imagine the defense without Verdugo or Duvall?? Not great. Although I guess that’s where Cedanne would come in |
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Post by carmenfanzone on Aug 6, 2023 17:59:41 GMT -5
If we traded Brainer Bonaci for Michael Lorenzen we would still be on the losing streak except we'd no longer have Brainer Bonaci Maybe so, but i don't think the Blue Jays would have scored 13 runs if Lorenzen would have started today. And the Sox might lose Bonaci in the Rule 5 draft anyway. I thought it was clear the Sox needed a starter. I think it was unforeseeable (at least by me) that they would suddenly stop scoring runs. |
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 6, 2023 20:52:09 GMT -5
Can we all just admit standing pat is never the best option? Sell and we would be fine with the current losing streak. Buy and people would say we would not be on the losing streak. Standing pat kinda sucks!!! Isn’t “buying” and then losing the worst possible outcome? Obviously we could still lose a bunch of games and not make the playoffs no matter what moves we made. Look at San Diego’s season. Standing pat can work great if you already have a decent team and think you can improve enough internally to compete without having to sacrifice future wins (prospects). Yeah. Look at what the Angels just did. It’s going to get really ugly over there. |
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Post by carmenfanzone on Aug 6, 2023 21:40:46 GMT -5
How much under the salary cap did the Red Sox end up after acquiring Urias? Were they enough under so they could have added a starter as well, say Lorenzen?
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Post by Montana Lemonious-Craig on Aug 6, 2023 21:44:39 GMT -5
Isn’t “buying” and then losing the worst possible outcome? Obviously we could still lose a bunch of games and not make the playoffs no matter what moves we made. Look at San Diego’s season. Standing pat can work great if you already have a decent team and think you can improve enough internally to compete without having to sacrifice future wins (prospects). Yeah. Look at what the Angels just did. It’s going to get really ugly over there. Padres say hello |
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Post by nonothing on Aug 6, 2023 22:40:25 GMT -5
If we traded Brainer Bonaci for Michael Lorenzen we would still be on the losing streak except we'd no longer have Brainer Bonaci Maybe so, but i don't think the Blue Jays would have scored 13 runs if Lorenzen would have started today. And the Sox might lose Bonaci in the Rule 5 draft anyway. I thought it was clear the Sox needed a starter. I think it was unforeseeable (at least by me) that they would suddenly stop scoring runs. The games they were losing on the west coast were because they didn't have enough quality bullpen innings left in their pitchers because they are using them to start or pitch bulk, where bulk is too many innings. They scored enough to win those games if they could have closed out games. Jansen is entitled to have a BS here and there, but Llovera and Jacques have cost them maybe 5 games in the last 2 weeks. Those are not guys who should either a) be on roster at all or b) be in high leverage situations for a team in a hunt for a playoff spot. They needed a starting pitcher capable of pitching quality starts to relieve the arms in the pen. Most people on this site knew that (i.e. very much common sense/not deep to understand) and people noted that if they didn't get somebody to eat innings, they could implode before the other guys got healthy. And that's what is happening. Bloom analyzes things to death, and I am sure he is very smart, but he is not a good decision-maker, and that is why after deeply analyzing a bunch of stuff, he couldn't execute a trade for one SP, when it was obvious they needed one. Decision-making is difficult for a lot of people. He needs a President of Baseball Ops on top of him to compel the difficult decisions to be made instead of participating in analysis paralysis and not executing on the biggest priority need of the club. |
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Post by chaimtime on Aug 7, 2023 0:58:34 GMT -5
Maybe this is just a sign of how much studying economics broke my brain but I really don’t care that they lost 13-1 and I don’t think it makes any difference to the debate around adding a starter. They are where they are in no small part because Chris Murphy has given them a lot of terrific innings over the past couple months. He had a stinker, as pitchers are wont to do. The guy they brought in after him also didn’t have it, but when you’re already down 6-1 in the bullpen game? Too bad, he’s gotta take one for the team and finish the inning.
The pitching was disappointing this series but that’s an outlier right now. The ice cold bats are becoming a trend, though, which is much more concerning to me.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 7, 2023 6:33:44 GMT -5
Maybe this is just a sign of how much studying economics broke my brain but I really don’t care that they lost 13-1 and I don’t think it makes any difference to the debate around adding a starter. They are where they are in no small part because Chris Murphy has given them a lot of terrific innings over the past couple months. He had a stinker, as pitchers are wont to do. The guy they brought in after him also didn’t have it, but when you’re already down 6-1 in the bullpen game? Too bad, he’s gotta take one for the team and finish the inning. The pitching was disappointing this series but that’s an outlier right now. The ice cold bats are becoming a trend, though, which is much more concerning to me. Its kind of the second time I can remember this season where they actually had a week where they struggled to score more than 3 runs in a game, which is ridiculous. Then they'll go on a run scoring binge, their overall numbers will look good and it'll be said offense isnt the problem. Which compared to the team defense and lack of reliable starting pitching is true. But the lack of thunder in the offense sometimes gets to them. To me the bigger issue is that when the offense fails this team has no way to win. They can't outpitch the other team nor can they out defend them. They certainly can't outsmart the other team. They're winning is all reliant on their streaky offense, so it allows for these 1-7 stretches that absolutely undoes whatever progress they make in a season in an instant and pulls them back toward .500. An aside, it's not that Llovera didnt have it. Hes simply a really bad pitcher, somebody the Sox would have been better off not acquiring. Bloom loves to rummage through his bargain bins. Sometimes he finds a hidden gem but the other 90% of the time hr finds guys like Llovera who simply cant get guys out and between him and Jacques and others they seem to wind up in spots that really hurt the team. The bullpen game nonsense needed to stop awhile ago and Bloom getting nobody to help put an end to the nonsense didnt help. It has put the hierarchy of the bullpen in disarray which I think is the reason we are seeing guys who shouldn't even be on the roster show up in spots in games they dont belong in. Oh they will go 7-1 at some point again, but it'll be too little too late. |
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 7, 2023 6:41:36 GMT -5
Isn’t “buying” and then losing the worst possible outcome? Obviously we could still lose a bunch of games and not make the playoffs no matter what moves we made. Look at San Diego’s season. Standing pat can work great if you already have a decent team and think you can improve enough internally to compete without having to sacrifice future wins (prospects). Yeah. Look at what the Angels just did. It’s going to get really ugly over there. True but I get why the Angels did it. They wanted to show Ohtani that they were serious about making the playoffs. They have to know that if they don't make that 3rd WC spot he's gone. So when dealing with keeping a generational talent you have to go for it. Now they probably should have thought about that in say November but main point still stands. So I get that... Padres I have no clue why they bought. None. |
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 7, 2023 6:43:10 GMT -5
How much under the salary cap did the Red Sox end up after acquiring Urias? Were they enough under so they could have added a starter as well, say Lorenzen? Yes they could have. I believe they are more than 5 million under or something like that. www.spotrac.com/mlb/boston-red-sox/payroll/?ref=trending-pagesApparently this link says 14 million under but that seems high to me. |
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 7, 2023 7:28:22 GMT -5
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Post by incandenza on Aug 7, 2023 8:11:23 GMT -5
Maddening article. Rosenthal has a quirk as a writer of opening an essay with some form of "Granted, the premises of the argument I'm about to make are fundamentally flawed. Nevertheless..." To wit:
And if you're going to evaluate the team's trade deadline you might want to mention *the single biggest move they made*, the acquisition of a second baseman with multiple years of control which shored up their weakest position. Rosenthal never does.
Does any other team get so heavily criticized for taking the bog-standard approach for teams with marginal playoff chances of making only marginal moves at the trade deadline?
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Post by manfred on Aug 7, 2023 8:21:08 GMT -5
Maddening article. Rosenthal has a quirk as a writer of opening an essay with some form of "Granted, the premises of the argument I'm about to make are fundamentally flawed. Nevertheless..." To wit:
And if you're going to evaluate the team's trade deadline you might want to mention *the single biggest move they made*, the acquisition of a second baseman with multiple years of control which shored up their weakest position. Rosenthal never does.
Does any other team get so heavily criticized for taking the bog-standard approach for teams with marginal playoff chances of making only marginal moves at the trade deadline?
You keep acting like Urias is some huge get. I don’t think it is so. It was a minor move. Your defense — this was standard behavior — undermines the view that Bloom is an innovator. If he is just being judged by standard terms, he’s falling short, given the Sox record on his watch. I thought he was bringing advances to the front office? And, in fairness, fans don’t really care about whataboutism. Did other teams do badly at the deadline? Maybe. But I am not rooting for them. |
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Post by briam on Aug 7, 2023 8:34:21 GMT -5
Maddening article. Rosenthal has a quirk as a writer of opening an essay with some form of "Granted, the premises of the argument I'm about to make are fundamentally flawed. Nevertheless..." To wit:
And if you're going to evaluate the team's trade deadline you might want to mention *the single biggest move they made*, the acquisition of a second baseman with multiple years of control which shored up their weakest position. Rosenthal never does.
Does any other team get so heavily criticized for taking the bog-standard approach for teams with marginal playoff chances of making only marginal moves at the trade deadline?
He clearly mentions Urias “and acquiring a right-handed hitting infielder, Luis Urias.” I think Urias is fine, but there’s a reason he was available for peanuts and the Sox got him for next to nothing. I think he did a really good job of highlighting Bloom’s hits while focusing on the fact this is his second deadline he’s (to this point) miscalculated. If you have an issue with this article it sure seems like you’d have an issue with anything short of near universal praise. |
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