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8/4-8/6 Red Sox vs. Blue Jays Series Thread
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 5, 2023 20:13:54 GMT -5
I dont know what's happened but this would be the 2nd time Verdugo has been benched for reasonable reasons in not that long of a time period. Easy to say after reading that quote but I'm ready to send Verdugo elsewhere in a deal this offseason. Before it would’ve been trading from a position of strength. I dont think it would be this off season. Between Dugie and Paxton...man this deadline is not looking good.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,677
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Post by cdj on Aug 5, 2023 20:14:24 GMT -5
Well at least Yu Chang didn’t get knocked out by Vladdy Jr
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Post by manfred on Aug 5, 2023 20:15:16 GMT -5
Well at least Yu Chang didn’t get knocked out by Vladdy Jr Vladdy would have to get on base!
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Post by wkdbigsoxfan on Aug 5, 2023 20:40:32 GMT -5
14-19 in one run games is third worst in the league among teams in contention. Hard to believe with as good a bullpen as the Sox have. That’s the difference right now.
1-4 on barreled balls today. Bad baseball and bad luck for the last week
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Post by jdb on Aug 5, 2023 21:00:39 GMT -5
Hopefully he can get it together and is fine off the field. I’ve always felt he was a platoon OFer helped with Fenway splits and think we’ll get pennies on the dollar this offseason. I thought last week we should go with Duval in RF and it’s more obvious now.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 5, 2023 21:05:27 GMT -5
If we trade Verdugo in the off season would the acquiring team be able to QO him or no?
If so I think that helps his value but smart teams will know we’re trying to pawn him off, which, as someone else pointed out, is what happened with Benintendi.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Aug 5, 2023 21:08:19 GMT -5
If we trade Verdugo in the off season would the acquiring team be able to QO him or no? Yes, if the trade happens prior to opening day 2024, his team can make him a QO after the 2024 season.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,677
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Post by cdj on Aug 5, 2023 21:13:28 GMT -5
14-19 in one run games is third worst in the league among teams in contention. Hard to believe with as good a bullpen as the Sox have. That’s the difference right now. 1-4 on barreled balls today. Bad baseball and bad luck for the last week Somehow top 3 in comeback wins too. Make it make sense!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 21:19:04 GMT -5
Read the whole article and it is incredibly, incredibly concerning.
-Not the first time Verdugo has been late in Red Sox career, according to Speier
-Scouts from other teams saying he looked “checked out”
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Post by redsox56 on Aug 5, 2023 21:29:39 GMT -5
Was it the trade talk and no extension talk from the Sox with this Verdugo? Is he that "soft" as a ballplayer?
I put soft leniently here, but point still stands.
Verdugo seems like the kind of guy that won't be hungry as soon as he gets paid.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 5, 2023 21:30:15 GMT -5
The Red Sox are good enough to make the post season. You dont sell when you have a real shot.
The problem is that the Sox forever continue to beat themselves. Last year they flat out werent good enough.
This year they would be if they stopped being their own worst enemy.
The team baseball IQ is horrendous. They make stupid baserunning decisions. They play horrendous team defense. They dont hit in the clutch. They make questionable managerial decisions They dont get the big out. They find ways to lose winnable games consistently.
The 2004 Red Sox team beat themselves with bad defense until Theo bravely fixed their "fatal flaw", defense, adding a bunch of gloves at the deadline.
This year's team still has the same issues plaguing them after the deadline.
They needed to win this game. They needed to put pressure on Toronto this series. Instead they're back in the basement, now behind NYY and Seattle, neither team that improved themselves at the deadline, too.
This game was a kick on the balls. It'll be interesting to see how they respond. If they win tomorrow, maybe they'll hang around awhile. Maybe theyll get hot again given that they're entering the cake stretch of their schedule before it gets rough the rest of the season.
Or if they lose tomorrow, then I think they're done. 5 games out isnt impossible to overcome. But when you have a team that is on the cusp of where it needs to go, then has their opportunity and then spits the bit, that tells me they dont have the balls to win.
Thet lose tomorrow, yeah theyll rebound a bit against KC and Washington, but they're dead. Theyll just be playing out the string...in August yet again. Which is inexcusable when your team can spend 225 million and only has to he the 5th best team to make the playoffs.
If/when they fail to make the postseason I have to think Cora will be gone. And if 2024 comes and goes with more of the same then I doubt Bloom gets extended.
The next GM will benefit from Bloom's vastly improving farm system and we'll have the same GM debates over and over again.
Tomorrow's game is the most crucial game of the season. Murphy is a lefty who has been surprisingly great. My guess is he, like Bernardino today, is due for a bad game and with Toronto's righty strong lineup, I dont expect good things tomorrow. Let's see how they respond to today's debacle.
So aggravating. They get to 7 games over .500, piss it away, and then waste two months getting back there, peak at 9 over and then instead of continuing their momentum they drop 6 of 7 and piss things away yet again.
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Post by cmax on Aug 5, 2023 21:34:00 GMT -5
Tough loss. Stepping back, Cora has really had Verdugo's number - calling him out at the end of last year and then he showed up this year in great shape and was the best player on the team for the first half of the season. When Verdugo started to slip, Cora called him out for not hustling and he stepped up again. Verdugo has obviously been really struggling lately and maybe this will jolt him back to his better self again. It has worked in the past with Cora. If Verdugo is at his best and a productive Story is back in the lineup this week, Sale, Whitlock, and Houck are coming back to join the pitching staff soon and this is a team that nobody will want to play.
Brutal loss, but this team can still respond well and realize all of its goals for the year. The Urias trade is starting to make a difference even if not yet in the W column. Brutal loss tonight for sure. Easy to feel doom and gloom right now but if Cora's move can help bring back top Verdugo form, this is a team that will be formidable down the stretch.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 21:39:29 GMT -5
Was it the trade talk and no extension talk from the Sox with this Verdugo? Is he that "soft" as a ballplayer? I put soft leniently here, but point still stands. Verdugo seems like the kind of guy that won't be hungry as soon as he gets paid. I mean he’s not showing up for work on time and right now he’s paying for (relative) pennies - if it’s been unclear why there’ve been no extension talks and they have been open to moving him (MassLive’s Chris Cotillo speculated he could be moving last off-season) I guess now we know why. Imagine going back in time to March and trying to explain that Kiké Hernandez had been unceremoniously shipped off, Alex Verdugo benched and seemingly reaching wit’s end with the team, and Jarren Duran playing like a star.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 5, 2023 21:47:26 GMT -5
Agree with redsox04071318 champs 100%
Remember when Devers got picked off third against the Mets? We won that game but that stuff isn’t getting fixed this season.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 5, 2023 21:48:36 GMT -5
Verdugo's season has taken a dramatic turn for the worst.
Verdugo has the talent to he a .300 hitter with 15 HR power and strong defense.
Cora challenged him to play defense, come into camp fit to be able to do it, and Verdugo responded.
At the all star break he had numbers that could have got him an all star game spot but he was passed over, which seemed to make things worse.
He already got taken out of a game for lack of hustle. Now he has taken a strong offensive season and turned it into a disappointing season as a corner OF who play half their games at Fenway should be better than this. I'm sure he'll eventually hit and finish around .290 merely being a bit above average rather than the all star he was supposed to be, which is a level he never really reaches.
I dont know what happened today. I can speculate and be 100% wrong. We know he showed up only 2 hours before the game. We know Cora finally and appropriately PH for him against a lefty last night.
It's fair to wonder what shape he showed up in today and what he said that got him scratched from the lineup.
Suffice to say a lot of immaturity was probably involved. Particularly when Cora said they went backwards as a team today.
And Bloom supported Cora 100%.
Suffice to say, instead of Bloom getting a young mid rotation starter for Verdugo he will be fortunate to get $0.70 on the dollar in a trade, but he will be trading Verdugo this offseason. Doubt he wants to invest 100 plus million in a guy this immature that needs Cora to kick him in the ass to motivate him.
The Red Sox are very LH anyways and there's no way Yoshida or Duran should be going elsewhere next year. At this point bringing back Duvall for RF makes a lot more sense as he'd bridge the gap to Anthony and his RH power bar would better balance the lineup.
It's a shame. They dealt Mookie and got a good defensive catcher who is not much of a hitter, an immature outfielder who was good but never as good as he could have been if he didnt get in his own way, and a failed prospect.
I will forever be pissed off that they felt compelled to make that trade, regardless of the financial situation. Mookie should have been given the Trout money he was looking for and this ultra rich ownership group should have bit the bullet.
It'll be interesting to see if Verdugo plays tomorrow, a must win game.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 5, 2023 22:00:17 GMT -5
The Red Sox are good enough to make the post season. But The team baseball IQ is horrendous. They make stupid baserunning decisions. They play horrendous team defense. They dont hit in the clutch. They make questionable managerial decisions They dont get the big out. They find ways to lose winnable games consistently. I think your second paragraph negates the first. The talent may be good enough, but it means nothing if they don't fulfill the promise
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Post by manfred on Aug 5, 2023 22:10:47 GMT -5
How does a second benching — in a key game — get calculated into WAR?
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Post by semperfisox on Aug 5, 2023 22:11:43 GMT -5
Can’t wait until we get a likable Red Sox team again. So done with these losers and their mental mistakes constantly.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 5, 2023 22:18:53 GMT -5
It got lost in the shuffle here a little bit, but good lord they are on a bad luck bender. McGuire goofed, but even if he hadn't been doubled off they probably still would have lost. Their win expectancy would have been maybe 25%ish. The real sin was committed by the gods, who must have conjured a wind to push that ball back or something, because everyone from the announcers to the fans to the pitcher on the mound was sure that was a homer. And if it had gone just a foot farther, or a couple feet to the left, it would have been a tie game and the Red Sox most likely grab one of their best victories of the season.
As for Verdugo... man, what a bummer. I really like him, but he has looked totally dispirited since around the time his grandmother died, and has totally regressed in both the hitting and the hustle departments. I don't know what's up, but I just hate these bad vibe stories - not least because once the Boston media (and fans [i.e., manfred]) get their claws on them you know you're going to be hearing about it for the rest of your natural life.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 5, 2023 22:19:14 GMT -5
I think the team is actually likeable.
When you take away the dead weight (Bleier, Kiké, Kluber) and the cap restrictions, bring back Sale and Story and probably move in from Verdugo, with new talent coming in next year⦠its going to be fun.
I am worried they take on a reclamation project for the rotation though. I really hope they donât spend the extra money on that. Would much rather get a premium SP or a middle class free agent guy like ERod.
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Post by manfred on Aug 5, 2023 22:26:39 GMT -5
It got lost in the shuffle here a little bit, but good lord they are on a bad luck bender. McGuire goofed, but even if he hadn't been doubled off they probably still would have lost. Their win expectancy would have been maybe 25%ish. The real sin was committed by the gods, who must have conjured a wind to push that ball back or something, because everyone from the announcers to the fans to the pitcher on the mound was sure that was a homer. And if it had gone just a foot farther, or a couple feet to the left, it would have been a tie game and the Red Sox most likely grab one of their best victories of the season.
As for Verdugo... man, what a bummer. I really like him, but he has looked totally dispirited since around the time his grandmother died, and has totally regressed in both the hitting and the hustle departments. I don't know what's up, but I just hate these bad vibe stories - not least because once the Boston media (and fans [i.e., manfred]) get their claws on them you know you're going to be hearing about it for the rest of your natural life.
Nah. I’ll drop it once people acknowledge I was right about him. Easy.
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Post by soxfaninnj on Aug 5, 2023 22:32:51 GMT -5
I think the team is actually likeable. When you take away the dead weight (Bleier, Kiké, Kluber) and the cap restrictions, bring back Sale and Story and probably move in from Verdugo, with new talent coming in next year⦠its going to be fun. I am worried they take on a reclamation project for the rotation though. I really hope they donât spend the extra money on that. Would much rather get a premium SP or a middle class free agent guy like ERod. Me personally I would back the brinks truck up for Yamamoto AND sign Erod.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 5, 2023 22:34:36 GMT -5
The Red Sox are good enough to make the post season. But The team baseball IQ is horrendous. They make stupid baserunning decisions. They play horrendous team defense. They dont hit in the clutch. They make questionable managerial decisions They dont get the big out. They find ways to lose winnable games consistently. I think your second paragraph negates the first. The talent may be good enough, but it means nothing if they don't fulfill the promise Yup, the bottom line is the bottom line or as Bill Parcells famously and accurately said, you are what your record should be. It's annoying because I feel if this team waant so heads up (their collective asses), they'd be in a playoff spot presenting a real threat to the other good teams. So instead the Red Sox self destruct. I remember thinking last year, these guys aren't as good as those guys. This year i just think they should be but havent. And when all is said and done, and all the lane excuses are doled out (bad luck, too many injuries, etc, whatever), the bottom line is the bottom line. Because the bottom line is what would cost Cora or eventually even Bloom his job. You dont get credit for being a good theoretical team. Have to perform on the field. I hope this team uses today as a sobering wakeup call. If it doesnt they ain't make it, which will be disappointing, because I dont think Toronto is as good as they have been and i think the Sox are better than NY and Seattle, too.
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Post by redsox56 on Aug 5, 2023 22:49:42 GMT -5
Houck is down 2 mph on his first rehab stint per Red Sox Stats.
So basically this season comes down to if Murphy can pull off a miracle with his best MLB appearance to date against a prominent RHB lineup like the Jays tomorrow AND Whitlock/Sale coming back. Not only coming back, but turning back the clock while being dominant like they were years ago.
That's a tall order.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 5, 2023 22:51:37 GMT -5
You know, I really don't think Houck's velocity being down a tick in his first rehab stint after missing seven weeks after taking a liner in the face is a good reason to write him off for the season.
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