SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
asm18
Veteran
Posts: 1,333
Member is Online
|
Post by asm18 on Jun 27, 2024 9:51:20 GMT -5
Cora is looking at three straight trade deadlines of the message being, “we might just trade everybody if our playoff odds aren’t at a certain arbitrary number” hanging over the team… and yet it’s out of line for him to set expectations high when the team is actually playing well? That’s what he should be doing!
It’s on the front office to arbitrate between short-term and long-term needs of the franchise. It’s not the coaches and players’ jobs to be like, “Ah well, you know it’s a seller market. We get it, Craig.” Breslow’s a big boy, he can handle it.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Jun 27, 2024 10:04:33 GMT -5
Cora is looking at three straight trade deadlines of the message being, “we might just trade everybody if our playoff odds aren’t at a certain arbitrary number” hanging over the team… and yet it’s out of line for him to set expectations high when the team is actually playing well? That’s what he should be doing! It’s on the front office to arbitrate between short-term and long-term needs of the franchise. It’s not the coaches and players’ jobs to be like, “Ah well, you know it’s a seller market. We get it, Craig.” Breslow’s a big boy, he can handle it. Yes, this is how it works - if the team is not good their playoff odds go down and then it makes sense to sell, which I suppose is a risk that "hangs over the team."
I dunno, it doesn't seem like it would be hard for Cora to be like "our job is to try to win games, whatever happens at the deadline," and just not say anything about what the front office ought to be doing. I don't think Breslow goes out in interviews and talks about how Cora ought to be managing the bullpen and whatnot. As a fan I don't like Cora doing that because I care about the short-term and long-term needs of the franchise - interestingly, just like the front office, but perhaps not like Cora.
|
|
asm18
Veteran
Posts: 1,333
Member is Online
|
Post by asm18 on Jun 27, 2024 10:17:17 GMT -5
As a fan I don't like Cora doing that because I care about the short-term and long-term needs of the franchise - interestingly, just like the front office, but perhaps not like Cora. [/div][/quote] I mean if they want him to care about beyond 2024… give him an extension. I guess I don’t see this as any different than when like Lebron or an NBA player wants certain moves to be made, or when a quarterback is asking for extra receivers in the NFL draft. Obviously I don’t want Breslow just being like, “Well AC wants moves, so I better do it.” But I have no issue with him asking for stuff. They don’t HAVE to indulge him if it’s doesn’t make sense. Breslow is the one in charge here - if he doesn’t like Cora saying stuff like this he can try telling him not to or choose not to try to renew his contract
|
|
|
Post by melvinhoggs on Jun 27, 2024 10:26:49 GMT -5
Cora is looking at three straight trade deadlines of the message being, “we might just trade everybody if our playoff odds aren’t at a certain arbitrary number” hanging over the team… and yet it’s out of line for him to set expectations high when the team is actually playing well? That’s what he should be doing! It’s on the front office to arbitrate between short-term and long-term needs of the franchise. It’s not the coaches and players’ jobs to be like, “Ah well, you know it’s a seller market. We get it, Craig.” Breslow’s a big boy, he can handle it. Yes, this is how it works - if the team is not good their playoff odds go down and then it makes sense to sell, which I suppose is a risk that "hangs over the team."
I dunno, it doesn't seem like it would be hard for Cora to be like "our job is to try to win games, whatever happens at the deadline," and just not say anything about what the front office ought to be doing. I don't think Breslow goes out in interviews and talks about how Cora ought to be managing the bullpen and whatnot. As a fan I don't like Cora doing that because I care about the short-term and long-term needs of the franchise - interestingly, just like the front office, but perhaps not like Cora.
This feels like a really sour over-reading into a single comment by a manager who's excited that the team is playing well. Cora's not stepping on anyone's toes here, and it has 0% effect on what Breslow and the FO will do.
|
|
|
Post by johnsilver52 on Jun 27, 2024 10:28:01 GMT -5
You tell me the team is improvable, and then you recommend Tyler Anderson, who would actively make the team worse. He somehow has a 2.63 ERA but that is about the fool's goldiest ERA I've ever seen because look at the rest of these numbers: 5.9 K/9 4.2 BB/9 4.71 xERA 4.77 FIP 5.28 xFIP As for the shortstop, who would it be that would improve on the combination of Hamilton and Romy? I don't see that player out there. Anyway, like I said they might be able to make a marginal improvement by adding a starting pitcher, especially if certain teams fall out of the playoff hunt, which will probably happen in the next month. But there's no obvious hole to fill, and nothing at all they can really do on the position player side. But if it's a seller's market (and with so few sellers it probably will be) I wouldn't want Breslow to force anything if it's not a good deal for the long term. Which is why I don't like Cora putting that much more pressure on him to do so.
Anderson's under the hood #s are ugly so I agree not much interest on my end in him unless he can basically be had for a song and even then probably not unless an SP or two goes down between now and the deadline. As for improving SS, if Hamilton's last month is even sustainable on any level then for sure there isn't an upgrade out there. That being said, I'm not a Valdez believer so I still say I'd be interested in DeJong if I was the Sox. Send down Valdez, play Hamilton at 2nd and Dejong at SS with Romy backing up and Valdez down in Worcester as injury replacement but I'm not going to die on that hill. If they make the move for him great if not oh well not like it's going to make or break them. I agree in regards to Cora's quotes, that was unnecessary pressure to add to front office in a season where quite frankly the amount of impact players traded at the deadline will probably be able to be counted on one hand. It's going to be a big time sellers market if I had to guess and I agree with what Breslow said in the offseason that they aren't interested in trading additional future wins for 2024 wins and I don't think that should change with less than half the season to go by the time the deadline comes. Believe deJong adds almost nothing to the team and limited range meidroth would probably serve the better bat. Meyer on the slow train at Portland is vexing. Perhaps it's because both Yorke/meidroth at AAA presently, but seeing if meyer hits at AAA as well as at AA gives more benefit organization wide. Just stop adding yet more middle infielders when there is a glut already. Try promoting 1 who has done well at every step for a change.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Jun 27, 2024 10:37:29 GMT -5
My case against DeJong would be:
- typographically weird name - 77 wRC+ since 2021 - sub-.300 xwOBA each of the last three seasons
- negative defensive metrics across the board this season - has a worse rest-of-season Steamer projection than all of Hamilton, Valdez, and Romy - has a slightly worse rest-of-season ZiPS projection than Hamilton and Romy and only slightly better projection than Valdez - Grissom's in the mix here too and I don't want to hold two of these guys back in AAA just to keep DeJong on the roster
|
|
|
Post by scottysmalls on Jun 27, 2024 10:46:56 GMT -5
As a fan I don't like Cora doing that because I care about the short-term and long-term needs of the franchise - interestingly, just like the front office, but perhaps not like Cora. [/div][/quote]
I mean if they want him to care about beyond 2024… give him an extension.
I guess I don’t see this as any different than when like Lebron or an NBA player wants certain moves to be made, or when a quarterback is asking for extra receivers in the NFL draft. Obviously I don’t want Breslow just being like, “Well AC wants moves, so I better do it.” But I have no issue with him asking for stuff. They don’t HAVE to indulge him if it’s doesn’t make sense.
Breslow is the one in charge here - if he doesn’t like Cora saying stuff like this he can try telling him not to or choose not to try to renew his contract [/quote] I think it's bad for the team when Lebron or any NBA player does this too. I also don't think Breslow can simply tell Cora what not to say. Cora saying this puts needless pressure on the front office both from the public and from the team. In the end I don't think it's that big a deal because I trust the front office will make the best decision, and I trust the players will try regardless, but comments like these create an annoying narrative and achieve nothing. Add: don't know what's going on with the formatting here but I tried to fix it and it made it worse
|
|
|
Post by ematz1423 on Jun 27, 2024 11:01:10 GMT -5
Fair enough in regards to DeJong, still will maintain I would trade for him if the cost was basically nothing. Like I said not a hill I'm going to die on. I'm also just not too into Valdez logging major PT at 2nd either but yes overall the difference in DeJong vs Valdez/Romy is probably negligible and could very well be a net negative if Valdez can hit well enough.
|
|
|
Post by oleary25 on Jun 27, 2024 11:38:38 GMT -5
Do you think Gausman might become available if the Blue Jays are selling off. He fits what the front office is looking for controllable front line pitching at a reasonably affordable price. You’re looking at 11 million remaining this year, and 23 million in the next two subsequent years. 57 million for two and a half years of control. What do you think the cost maybe?
|
|
|
Post by scottysmalls on Jun 27, 2024 11:42:23 GMT -5
Do you think Gausman might become available if the Blue Jays are selling off. He fits what the front office is looking for controllable front line pitching at a reasonably affordable price. You’re looking at 11 million remaining this year, and 23 million in the next two subsequent years. 57 million for two and a half years of control. What do you think the cost maybe? They might be open to it but just looking at his stat line there’s some big red flags. His fastball velocity is down almost 1 MPH, his K% has dropped dramatically and his xERA is terrible.
|
|
|
Post by ematz1423 on Jun 27, 2024 11:53:36 GMT -5
I would not want to take gausman and that contract. He looks to me like a guy in a decline that will get ugly before that contract is up. If I'm the jays I'd try and flip that guy for peanuts and get out from that deal.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 27, 2024 11:53:51 GMT -5
The team is certainly improveable. All teams are improveable. The question is what is available, what is the cost, and is it worth it? That said, I have no desire to see any of Mayer, Anthony, Teel, Campbell, Cespedes, or even Bleis get dealt. And I'm not eager to deal youngsters like Abreu, Hamilton, or Rafaela. I think dealing Grissom away would be short sighted So that leaves you a quantity of second tier prospects to deal to improve the current team, which I think should add, rather than subtract, given their emergence, but without giving up any of the guys I listed I doubt there is much in the way of sizeable upgrades to improve the roster. But I am an admitted prospect hugger so i wouldn't be great at the judgment thing like a good PoBO should be. My hope is that Grissom gets healthy, rakes in AAA and becomes the 2b with Hamilton at SS, O'Neill becoming the primary DH with Duran in LF and Rafaela in CF. But if that doesnt work a stop gap SS who can play good defense without being an automatic out would help. And yes starter, perhaps Tyler Anderson, ir maybe a rental would come cheaper, a short-term who could slot in behind Houcj and ahead of Pivetta, Crawford and Bellp, but theyd probably have to give up players I'd hate to give up. You tell me the team is improvable, and then you recommend Tyler Anderson, who would actively make the team worse. He somehow has a 2.63 ERA but that is about the fool's goldiest ERA I've ever seen because look at the rest of these numbers: 5.9 K/9 4.2 BB/9 4.71 xERA 4.77 FIP 5.28 xFIP As for the shortstop, who would it be that would improve on the combination of Hamilton and Romy? I don't see that player out there. Anyway, like I said they might be able to make a marginal improvement by adding a starting pitcher, especially if certain teams fall out of the playoff hunt, which will probably happen in the next month. But there's no obvious hole to fill, and nothing at all they can really do on the position player side. But if it's a seller's market (and with so few sellers it probably will be) I wouldn't want Breslow to force anything if it's not a good deal for the long term. Which is why I don't like Cora putting that much more pressure on him to do so.
Every team is improveable. Stop acting like the Sox are some 120 win juggernaut. They're not. Nor are all the other teams. I threw a name out there in Tyler Anderson. I would not die on the hill for Tyler Anderson. Doesnt have to be Tyler Anderson. You're so busy throwing projection stats at me and ignoring real life results there is a possibility that his peripherals could improve - they're not written in stone any more than his actual numbers are. Again, not a hill I'd die on, but a larger point is there are pitchers available who could improve this unapproveabke team. The more important question is would it be worth what they likely give up? I've already admitted to my prospect hugging ways so I'd be squeamish on dealing guys I believe in that can impact this team over the next 5 years, so in the end I think we actually agree that making smaller marginal moves makes more sense than being risky with the future. When I mentioned defensive SS it was either the idea that Hamilton slides to 2b on place of Valdez. I'd slide Hamilton back to SS if Grissom was ready to come up and be who I think he can be, which he isnt and wont be for awhile. In any event I wouldnt mind a modern day Pokey Reese coming off the bench for late inning defense if Grissom is part of the plan or a better quality SS if Hamiltin becomes the 2b.
|
|
|
Post by ematz1423 on Jun 27, 2024 12:01:58 GMT -5
Every team is "improvable" even the 2018 juggernaut was technically improvable. It's just a question of cost vs value. If the Brewers could be talked into moving Wily Adames in a trade and the Sox said here is Mayer for Adames. Would I do that trade? No the value isn't there for me but it for sure would be an upgrade in the short term.
We can go back and forth on value/worth and the such, I would take some sort of decent 4th/5th starter type if one could be had for a fair price where I know some on here have said that they don't see the point which hey I understand that viewpoint too but I still think there can be value in upgrading on the margins if possible.
|
|
|
Post by lronhoyabembe on Jun 27, 2024 12:17:05 GMT -5
"Not improvable" does not mean perfect. I don't think anyone is arguing that this team can't be better. But it's hard to speculate on how the team can actually be improved because the picture of who is available is unclear. Will a pitcher like Max Scherzer be available at the deadline? That depends on how the Rangers play over the next month.
I've mentioned it before, but I have not been a fan of Cora's deadline comments for the past three years either. Cora's job is to manage the team he has. If he is not confident in the present roster's ability to compete, he should have that conversation with Breslow, whose job it is to construct the roster. By putting these comments out in the media, however obvious they are, Cora is undermining the confidence of his current squad.
|
|
|
Post by cba82 on Jun 27, 2024 12:20:50 GMT -5
Yes, this.
Wish one of the reporters in the room had had the nerve at ask Cora at what specific position he would like to see an upgrade.
If I’m a player in that locker room, I feel I’ve been undermined by my manager.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Jun 27, 2024 12:24:58 GMT -5
You tell me the team is improvable, and then you recommend Tyler Anderson, who would actively make the team worse. He somehow has a 2.63 ERA but that is about the fool's goldiest ERA I've ever seen because look at the rest of these numbers: 5.9 K/9 4.2 BB/9 4.71 xERA 4.77 FIP 5.28 xFIP As for the shortstop, who would it be that would improve on the combination of Hamilton and Romy? I don't see that player out there. Anyway, like I said they might be able to make a marginal improvement by adding a starting pitcher, especially if certain teams fall out of the playoff hunt, which will probably happen in the next month. But there's no obvious hole to fill, and nothing at all they can really do on the position player side. But if it's a seller's market (and with so few sellers it probably will be) I wouldn't want Breslow to force anything if it's not a good deal for the long term. Which is why I don't like Cora putting that much more pressure on him to do so.
Every team is improveable. Stop acting like the Sox are some 120 win juggernaut. They're not. Nor are all the other teams. I threw a name out there in Tyler Anderson. I would not die on the hill for Tyler Anderson. Doesnt have to be Tyler Anderson. You're so busy throwing projection stats at me and ignoring real life results there is a possibility that his peripherals could improve - they're not written in stone any more than his actual numbers are. Again, not a hill I'd die on, but a larger point is there are pitchers available who could improve this unapproveabke team. The more important question is would it be worth what they likely give up? I've already admitted to my prospect hugging ways so I'd be squeamish on dealing guys I believe in that can impact this team over the next 5 years, so in the end I think we actually agree that making smaller marginal moves makes more sense than being risky with the future. When I mentioned defensive SS it was either the idea that Hamilton slides to 2b on place of Valdez. I'd slide Hamilton back to SS if Grissom was ready to come up and be who I think he can be, which he isnt and wont be for awhile. In any event I wouldnt mind a modern day Pokey Reese coming off the bench for late inning defense if Grissom is part of the plan or a better quality SS if Hamiltin becomes the 2b. I really feel like it should be clear from context that when I say they're unimprovable, I am not saying they're a 120 win team; I mean they can't be improved through any reasonable and practical means. I bet the Cubs would take Mayer, Anthony, and Teel for Dansby Swanson and then, boom, Red Sox would be improved. But that would not be a reasonable and practical trade.
Likewise, "modern day Pokey Reese" is not a reasonable and practical trade target because unless I'm overlooking someone there is no such player who will be available.
I explicitly made an exception for the possibility that a fairly high-profile pitching addition could improve the team, so I'm not sure why you're still trying to convince me of that. Another pitching injury could intensify the need too. And I can't rule out that they might do something outside-the-box on the position player side involving some buying and selling. The "problem," though, is that once Casas comes back they're basically solid at every position on the roster so even where upgrades are theoretically possible they're only going to be marginal upgrades and therefore not worth the prospect cost; and any more minor moves (like the DeJong proposal) won't actually make the team better.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Jun 27, 2024 12:31:31 GMT -5
Yes, this. Wish one of the reporters in the room had had the nerve at ask Cora at what specific position he would like to see an upgrade.
If I’m a player in that locker room, I feel I’ve been undermined by my manager. Ha, someone should ask Chase Anderson what he thinks the team should do at the deadline.
In all seriousness, I'm not actually worried about the players' confidence being undermined; I think they get the concept that trade additions can help even a very good team, and every trade deadline you hear from players who are excited about making big additions. But in the Red Sox' specific case we've had players two years in a row that were grouchy about not adding at the deadline. My mild annoyance (it's not that big a deal) is that Cora's comments could contribute to that attitude once again - and the annoyance is compounded by the fact that Cora himself is not bathed in glory by his stewardhip of those teams post-deadline.
|
|
|
Post by lronhoyabembe on Jun 27, 2024 12:44:24 GMT -5
Yes, this. Wish one of the reporters in the room had had the nerve at ask Cora at what specific position he would like to see an upgrade.
If I’m a player in that locker room, I feel I’ve been undermined by my manager. Ha, someone should ask Chase Anderson what he thinks the team should do at the deadline.
In all seriousness, I'm not actually worried about the players' confidence being undermined; I think they get the concept that trade additions can help even a very good team, and every trade deadline you hear from players who are excited about making big additions. But in the Red Sox' specific case we've had players two years in a row that were grouchy about not adding at the deadline. My mild annoyance (it's not that big a deal) is that Cora's comments could contribute to that attitude once again - and the annoyance is compounded by the fact that Cora himself is not bathed in glory by his stewardhip of those teams post-deadline.
Agreed, and I will clarify that in addition to the individual confidence of the players, these comments can also impact the confidence of the players in the team as a whole and their general competitiveness. It certainly feels like the last couple of deadlines, after no major additions, the players took that as a vote of no-confidence and decided that it wasn't worth competing anymore. That may not be what actually happened, but when Cora expresses these attitudes, it lends credence to the idea.
|
|
|
Post by oldfaithful2019 on Jun 27, 2024 12:48:28 GMT -5
More of the same with Cora. He has covered his butt which is what he does. He could have said something more encouraging like " we have the guys in the room now that we need make a run at the teams ahead of us" Which I believe. Then, "if management makes moves that they feel make the roster even stronger, we will be even stronger".
I don't like Cora and his deadline statement yesterday reminds me of why.
|
|
asm18
Veteran
Posts: 1,333
Member is Online
|
Post by asm18 on Jun 27, 2024 12:50:33 GMT -5
For clarity’s sake, here are Cora’s comments in print.
Is this likely a passive aggressive swipe at Bloom? Yes. Is this an early plea to Breslow to buy at deadline? Probably. Is Cora blameless the last two summers? Of course not.
But I think the broader point he’s trying to make is you can get worse (by selling some of your good players), or get better (by making improvements, whether that’s a major trade or on the margins/getting depth.) If you don’t do anything, or if you do a mix of buy/sell, someone around you will actually buy and it’s gonna be harder to keep pace with them. Last year that was Texas - getting Montgomery is probably what kept them from nearly collapsing down the stretch. If he goes anywhere else Texas might not have made the playoffs, much less won the World Series.
Overall Cora strikes a positive tone. Like he’s flat out saying the team can do better than just squeak into the playoffs!
-https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/alex-cora-red-sox-get-greedy-craid-breslow-mlb-trade-deadline-playoff-race/
|
|
tedf
Rookie
Posts: 146
|
Post by tedf on Jun 27, 2024 12:51:26 GMT -5
Don't want to get into specific names, but right now the rotation depth is Houck, Pivetta, Crawford, Bello, Winckowski, and Criswell. Maybe Fitts after that? Ought to be enough as long as everybody is healthy, but one injury puts Criswell into the rotation full time, and two pull in Fitts whether or not he is ready. I would have a lot more confidence in the depth if there were one more veteran arm, even if he doesn't slot at the top of the rotation. That said, if the front six are all healthy through the end of June, and Fitts is looking close, then maybe I'm just being paranoid?
Would also like to see a good RHH bat at DH. The lineup is lefty-heavy, and I'd be losing faith in Yoshida even if it weren't.
We've got enough 2B in the mix already, but will one of them please step up?!?
|
|
|
Post by lronhoyabembe on Jun 27, 2024 13:11:29 GMT -5
For clarity’s sake, here are Cora’s comments in print. Is this likely a passive aggressive swipe at Bloom? Yes. Is this an early plea to Breslow to buy at deadline? Probably. Is Cora blameless the last two summers? Of course not. But I think the broader point he’s trying to make is you can get worse (by selling some of your good players), or get better (by making improvements, whether that’s a major trade or on the margins/getting depth.) If you don’t do anything, or if you do a mix of buy/sell, someone around you will actually buy and it’s gonna be harder to keep pace with them. Last year that was Texas - getting Montgomery is probably what kept them from nearly collapsing down the stretch. If he goes anywhere else Texas might not have made the playoffs, much less won the World Series. Overall Cora strikes a positive tone. Like he’s flat out saying the team can do better than just squeak into the playoffs! -https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/alex-cora-red-sox-get-greedy-craid-breslow-mlb-trade-deadline-playoff-race/ Yes, nothing Cora said was wrong, and of course he has all the incentive to win now, while he is the manager, rather than 2030, when he probably won't be the manager. But he has to recognize that the front office has to consider many factors and many possible futures when making a significant trade. It's possible for any one of the three possibilities he mentioned to be the correct course of action for the organization. Does he think the front office does not have the best competitive interests? Then he should have that conversation with the front office. All he is accomplishing by saying these things to the media is providing ammunition for the media to rail on the team if they do anything but add at this deadline (for the record, I agree that it is time to start pushing chips in, unlike last year or the year before). It sets the expectation that if the team does not add, then they can't compete with other teams that do add, which is not necessarily true. On the other hand, what are the upsides of making a public comment like this? I can't think of any.
|
|
|
Post by julyanmorley on Jun 27, 2024 13:17:07 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by brendan98 on Jun 27, 2024 13:24:19 GMT -5
Getting Casas back will be the biggest boost. Hopefully Hendricks helps the pen too.
Adding a starting pitcher certainly seems like it should be a priority with the way Bello and Crawford have been performing the last month+.
A RH hitter could really help also, maybe a return of JT or JD could happen (not sure Toronto or the Mets are sellers though).
|
|
|
Post by crossedsabres8 on Jun 27, 2024 13:31:09 GMT -5
Frankly the last 3 deadlines have been pretty annoying. The Red Sox are usually on the fence and have a team and roster situation where it didn't make sense to make a big trade, but they did make a lot of smaller moves that proved pretty useful, like the Vazquez trade and grabbing Schwarber in 2021.
Not to say that things were done perfectly, or even well, they absolutely were not.
But it's pretty frustrating that the vibes have tanked post deadline after each year, coming from the vets being pouty about not adding enough. And the last two years that ended up in the seasons tanking.
It's really not hard to blame that on Cora. He's supposed to be a vibes guy. So to see him make these comments is really disappointing and it just feels like the same thing is going to happen again.
Because as has been stated here it's going to be really hard to significantly improve this team given what players are likely to be available and how much it makes sense for the Red Sox to pay the price.
|
|
|