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Post by oleary25 on Jun 27, 2024 13:48:17 GMT -5
You tell me the team is improvable, and then you recommend Tyler Anderson, who would actively make the team worse. He somehow has a 2.63 ERA but that is about the fool's goldiest ERA I've ever seen because look at the rest of these numbers: 5.9 K/9 4.2 BB/9 4.71 xERA 4.77 FIP 5.28 xFIP As for the shortstop, who would it be that would improve on the combination of Hamilton and Romy? I don't see that player out there. Anyway, like I said they might be able to make a marginal improvement by adding a starting pitcher, especially if certain teams fall out of the playoff hunt, which will probably happen in the next month. But there's no obvious hole to fill, and nothing at all they can really do on the position player side. But if it's a seller's market (and with so few sellers it probably will be) I wouldn't want Breslow to force anything if it's not a good deal for the long term. Which is why I don't like Cora putting that much more pressure on him to do so.
Every team is improveable. Stop acting like the Sox are some 120 win juggernaut. They're not. Nor are all the other teams. I threw a name out there in Tyler Anderson. I would not die on the hill for Tyler Anderson. Doesnt have to be Tyler Anderson. You're so busy throwing projection stats at me and ignoring real life results there is a possibility that his peripherals could improve - they're not written in stone any more than his actual numbers are. Again, not a hill I'd die on, but a larger point is there are pitchers available who could improve this unapproveabke team. The more important question is would it be worth what they likely give up? I've already admitted to my prospect hugging ways so I'd be squeamish on dealing guys I believe in that can impact this team over the next 5 years, so in the end I think we actually agree that making smaller marginal moves makes more sense than being risky with the future. When I mentioned defensive SS it was either the idea that Hamilton slides to 2b on place of Valdez. I'd slide Hamilton back to SS if Grissom was ready to come up and be who I think he can be, which he isnt and wont be for awhile. In any event I wouldnt mind a modern day Pokey Reese coming off the bench for late inning defense if Grissom is part of the plan or a better quality SS if Hamiltin becomes the 2b.
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Post by oleary25 on Jun 27, 2024 13:51:29 GMT -5
I was looking at his stats by pitch . He’s throwing 50 percent fastballs. If he buys into Baileys more off speed approach he may regain being a top of the rotation pitcher . If not he eats a lot of innings which with pitchers in uncharted territory in innings pitched would be very valuable in its self.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 27, 2024 14:22:14 GMT -5
Every team is improveable. Stop acting like the Sox are some 120 win juggernaut. They're not. Nor are all the other teams. I threw a name out there in Tyler Anderson. I would not die on the hill for Tyler Anderson. Doesnt have to be Tyler Anderson. You're so busy throwing projection stats at me and ignoring real life results there is a possibility that his peripherals could improve - they're not written in stone any more than his actual numbers are. Again, not a hill I'd die on, but a larger point is there are pitchers available who could improve this unapproveabke team. The more important question is would it be worth what they likely give up? I've already admitted to my prospect hugging ways so I'd be squeamish on dealing guys I believe in that can impact this team over the next 5 years, so in the end I think we actually agree that making smaller marginal moves makes more sense than being risky with the future. When I mentioned defensive SS it was either the idea that Hamilton slides to 2b on place of Valdez. I'd slide Hamilton back to SS if Grissom was ready to come up and be who I think he can be, which he isnt and wont be for awhile. In any event I wouldnt mind a modern day Pokey Reese coming off the bench for late inning defense if Grissom is part of the plan or a better quality SS if Hamiltin becomes the 2b. I really feel like it should be clear from context that when I say they're unimprovable, I am not saying they're a 120 win team; I mean they can't be improved through any reasonable and practical means. I bet the Cubs would take Mayer, Anthony, and Teel for Dansby Swanson and then, boom, Red Sox would be improved. But that would not be a reasonable and practical trade. Likewise, "modern day Pokey Reese" is not a reasonable and practical trade target because unless I'm overlooking someone there is no such player who will be available. I explicitly made an exception for the possibility that a fairly high-profile pitching addition could improve the team, so I'm not sure why you're still trying to convince me of that. Another pitching injury could intensify the need too. And I can't rule out that they might do something outside-the-box on the position player side involving some buying and selling. The "problem," though, is that once Casas comes back they're basically solid at every position on the roster so even where upgrades are theoretically possible they're only going to be marginal upgrades and therefore not worth the prospect cost; and any more minor moves (like the DeJong proposal) won't actually make the team better.
You're telling me that the Sox shouldn't be able to find a SS who can play SS a lot better defensively than Valdez can play 2b and also a step up from Hamilton at SS? Maybe not Pokey Reese, but somebody that's a big defensive upgrade who isnt a complete zero with the bat? I dont buy that. The Sox biggest weakness is their team defense. Moving Hamilton to 2b would be an upgrade over Valdez and playing a SS who is better defensively than Hamilton shouldn't be a stretch. Depending upon what they plan on doing with Grissom, whether it's a mediocre hitting good fielding SS or a late inning glove wiz, it would be a useful improvement for the team to have.
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Jun 27, 2024 14:29:24 GMT -5
I've really changed opinions on this, but, as of right now, I believe this season has been Cora's finest hour. With mixing and matching through catastrophic injuries or having faith in the kids, I think its been pretty amazing. There are so many instances where this season could have gone south.
I still think he's a butcher as a in game manager and sometimes his bullpen choices are baffling..
With that being said, I absolutely love this from Cora, this clubhouse has a certain swagger and his comments fit perfectly for how i believe the players are thinking.
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Post by wamderingdude on Jun 27, 2024 14:33:08 GMT -5
I really feel like it should be clear from context that when I say they're unimprovable, I am not saying they're a 120 win team; I mean they can't be improved through any reasonable and practical means. I bet the Cubs would take Mayer, Anthony, and Teel for Dansby Swanson and then, boom, Red Sox would be improved. But that would not be a reasonable and practical trade. Likewise, "modern day Pokey Reese" is not a reasonable and practical trade target because unless I'm overlooking someone there is no such player who will be available. I explicitly made an exception for the possibility that a fairly high-profile pitching addition could improve the team, so I'm not sure why you're still trying to convince me of that. Another pitching injury could intensify the need too. And I can't rule out that they might do something outside-the-box on the position player side involving some buying and selling. The "problem," though, is that once Casas comes back they're basically solid at every position on the roster so even where upgrades are theoretically possible they're only going to be marginal upgrades and therefore not worth the prospect cost; and any more minor moves (like the DeJong proposal) won't actually make the team better.
You're telling me that the Sox shouldn't be able to find a SS who can play SS a lot better defensively than Valdez can play 2b and also a step up from Hamilton at SS? Maybe not Pokey Reese, but somebody that's a big defensive upgrade who isnt a complete zero with the bat? I dont buy that. The Sox biggest weakness is their team defense. Moving Hamilton to 2b would be an upgrade over Valdez and playing a SS who is better defensively than Hamilton shouldn't be a stretch. Depending upon what they plan on doing with Grissom, whether it's a mediocre hitting good fielding SS or a late inning glove wiz, it would be a useful improvement for the team to have. That type of profile isn’t really available and would cost a lot more than you would anticipate. Anthony Volpe had an 84 WRC+ last year with good defensive metrics and was worth 2.1 fwar. The closest name i’ve seen floated is paul dejong who has negative defensive metrics and can’t hit. Anyone who has a good fielding shortstop that isn’t a complete 0 at the plate is going to just keep them unless you overpay. Some depth would be nice in case hamilton/valdez/grissom all crater but i don’t see a clear upgrade at a reasonable price out there. Also, moving Rafaela back to Center full time helps with the defense, but that makes you sit one of O’Neill, Yoshida, or Wilyer everyday and hurts the lineup. Maybe Yoshida is all the way cooked but he’s probably going to be a way better hitter than whatever shortstop we’re playing instead.
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 27, 2024 14:34:20 GMT -5
I really feel like it should be clear from context that when I say they're unimprovable, I am not saying they're a 120 win team; I mean they can't be improved through any reasonable and practical means. I bet the Cubs would take Mayer, Anthony, and Teel for Dansby Swanson and then, boom, Red Sox would be improved. But that would not be a reasonable and practical trade. Likewise, "modern day Pokey Reese" is not a reasonable and practical trade target because unless I'm overlooking someone there is no such player who will be available. I explicitly made an exception for the possibility that a fairly high-profile pitching addition could improve the team, so I'm not sure why you're still trying to convince me of that. Another pitching injury could intensify the need too. And I can't rule out that they might do something outside-the-box on the position player side involving some buying and selling. The "problem," though, is that once Casas comes back they're basically solid at every position on the roster so even where upgrades are theoretically possible they're only going to be marginal upgrades and therefore not worth the prospect cost; and any more minor moves (like the DeJong proposal) won't actually make the team better.
You're telling me that the Sox shouldn't be able to find a SS who can play SS a lot better defensively than Valdez can play 2b and also a step up from Hamilton at SS? Maybe not Pokey Reese, but somebody that's a big defensive upgrade who isnt a complete zero with the bat? I dont buy that. The Sox biggest weakness is their team defense. Moving Hamilton to 2b would be an upgrade over Valdez and playing a SS who is better defensively than Hamilton shouldn't be a stretch. Depending upon what they plan on doing with Grissom, whether it's a mediocre hitting good fielding SS or a late inning glove wiz, it would be a useful improvement for the team to have. The problem with your logic, I think, is that you're underestimating the expanded playoffs. Five years ago the Rays would be 10.5 games out of the playoffs with a month til the deadline. The Twins and Rays would be 8 and 9 games out respectively. Hell, the Sox would be looking at a major uphill battle to overtake the Orioles, being 7 games back. Instead all of those teams are either in the playoffs right now or within 3.5 games. All of those teams who would be selling off their expiring contracts are instead looking for the piece that will put them closer to the Orioles than the Sox. So I worry that even if there is that player available they'd be bidding against half the league.
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Post by incandenza on Jun 27, 2024 14:38:15 GMT -5
I really feel like it should be clear from context that when I say they're unimprovable, I am not saying they're a 120 win team; I mean they can't be improved through any reasonable and practical means. I bet the Cubs would take Mayer, Anthony, and Teel for Dansby Swanson and then, boom, Red Sox would be improved. But that would not be a reasonable and practical trade. Likewise, "modern day Pokey Reese" is not a reasonable and practical trade target because unless I'm overlooking someone there is no such player who will be available. I explicitly made an exception for the possibility that a fairly high-profile pitching addition could improve the team, so I'm not sure why you're still trying to convince me of that. Another pitching injury could intensify the need too. And I can't rule out that they might do something outside-the-box on the position player side involving some buying and selling. The "problem," though, is that once Casas comes back they're basically solid at every position on the roster so even where upgrades are theoretically possible they're only going to be marginal upgrades and therefore not worth the prospect cost; and any more minor moves (like the DeJong proposal) won't actually make the team better.
You're telling me that the Sox shouldn't be able to find a SS who can play SS a lot better defensively than Valdez can play 2b and also a step up from Hamilton at SS?Maybe not Pokey Reese, but somebody that's a big defensive upgrade who isnt a complete zero with the bat? I dont buy that. The Sox biggest weakness is their team defense. Moving Hamilton to 2b would be an upgrade over Valdez and playing a SS who is better defensively than Hamilton shouldn't be a stretch. Depending upon what they plan on doing with Grissom, whether it's a mediocre hitting good fielding SS or a late inning glove wiz, it would be a useful improvement for the team to have. Yes this is what I'm saying. But also they arguably already have this guy in Romy Gonzalez. And more precisely: there's no middle infielder likely to be available who I would prefer over two of Hamilton, Gonzalez, Valdez, and Grissom.
If you think I'm wrong then feel free to name the player you'd target.
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tedf
Rookie
Posts: 141
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Post by tedf on Jun 27, 2024 15:03:45 GMT -5
Yes this is what I'm saying. But also they arguably already have this guy in Romy Gonzalez. And more precisely: there's no middle infielder likely to be available who I would prefer over two of Hamilton, Gonzalez, Valdez, and Grissom.
If you think I'm wrong then feel free to name the player you'd target.
Might be wish-casting, but I'd really like to see what Meidroth can bring at second base. I know a healthy Grissom hit .330/.419/.501 last year in AAA, and packs a heck of a lot more punch in his swing when he's right, but he has been injured all year thus far. Hoping Meidroth might also be above-average defensively?
I like the Hamilton/Gonzalez pairing at shortstop, especially once we get a RHH second baseman in.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 27, 2024 15:12:14 GMT -5
Feel like people are writing off Valdez a little too much in here. He’s been absolutely killing the ball the last two weeks running a .400 xwOBA.
That said - if Valdez cools off a guy I could be interested in from the White Sox rather than DeJong is Nicky Lopez. He’s a lefty so he fits better platooning with Romy, and he’s a good defender at every infield position.
I’d probably rather just roll with the in house guys and see what we have, but I could get a Lopez acquisition if you think his shortstop defensive stats this year are fluky.
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 27, 2024 15:15:50 GMT -5
Feel like people are writing off Valdez a little too much in here. He’s been absolutely killing the ball the last two weeks running a .400 xwOBA. I don't know that anyone is wanting to replace Valdez because of his bat, it's his defense at 2b. It's not good. It's not even not good, it's bad.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 27, 2024 15:20:09 GMT -5
Feel like people are writing off Valdez a little too much in here. He’s been absolutely killing the ball the last two weeks running a .400 xwOBA. I don't know that anyone is wanting to replace Valdez because of his bat, it's his defense at 2b. It's not good. It's not even not good, it's bad. Yes but if he is a great hitter then you live with it. He’s very bad there but not unplayably so.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jun 27, 2024 15:20:39 GMT -5
Feel like people are writing off Valdez a little too much in here. He’s been absolutely killing the ball the last two weeks running a .400 xwOBA. I don't know that anyone is wanting to replace Valdez because of his bat, it's his defense at 2b. It's not good. It's not even not good, it's bad.This, I am very much sick of the AAA level of defense the team has put out the last couple seasons and 2nd base has certainly been part of that.
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asm18
Veteran
Posts: 1,300
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Post by asm18 on Jun 27, 2024 15:28:38 GMT -5
Nick Ahmed, Paul DeJong, Nicky Lopez - I guess these are all dudes you could get if guys get hurt or start to fall back to Earth. But I’m not sure they’re all that much better than what you have - what they might give you with the glove they take away with the bat.
It feels like they’re going to have mix and match in the middle infield no matter what at this point. The only guy who you could talk yourself into being above average both offensively and defensively at SS is currently in Portland right now…
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,697
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Post by cdj on Jun 27, 2024 15:33:15 GMT -5
David Hamilton over all of em
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Post by badballhitter on Jun 27, 2024 15:35:23 GMT -5
Cranky rain delay opinion: Cora presided over two consecutive years of the team basically quitting in the last quarter of the season. Yeah, Duran and Casas got hurt and they only added one player at the trade deadline last year, but is that why the Red Sox finished *11 games* out of the wild card when they were only 2 games out at the trade deadline? Those consecutive collapses may have caused the last GM his job. So I don't *love* Cora raising expectations and putting public pressure on his GM to be aggressive at the trade deadline. Especially considering that the team is basically unimprovable (barring a fairly major starting pitcher addition). I honestly think this is one of his best traits as a manager. He expects to win and isn't shy about telling people even if that opinion isn't popular with his bosses. I call that leadership.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 27, 2024 15:37:02 GMT -5
David Hamilton over all of em In my mind he's separate in this conversation. I'd have him as the shortstop most days with Rafaela in the outfield.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jun 27, 2024 15:48:43 GMT -5
David Hamilton over all of em In my mind he's separate in this conversation. I'd have him as the shortstop most days with Rafaela in the outfield. Same, my thought would be to upgrade from Valdez if possible and not cost prohibitive. Whether that is some unforeseen SS that pushes Hamilton to 2nd or a 2nd baseman that keeps Hamilton at SS. Either way Hamilton should have enough rope to hold on to one of the MI positions through the rest of the season. Also as you said another viable MI would allow Rafaela to play the bulk of his games in the outfield. Rafaela playing SS shouldn't happen outside of an emergency.
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 27, 2024 15:50:09 GMT -5
I don't know that anyone is wanting to replace Valdez because of his bat, it's his defense at 2b. It's not good. It's not even not good, it's bad. Yes but if he is a great hitter then you live with it. He’s very bad there but not unplayably so. Is he a "great hitter"? Or is he a pretty good hitter that went on a crazy hot streak when he got called back up and has maybe come back to earth over the past 7 or so games?
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 27, 2024 15:59:33 GMT -5
Yes but if he is a great hitter then you live with it. He’s very bad there but not unplayably so. Is he a "great hitter"? Or is he a pretty good hitter that went on a crazy hot streak when he got called back up and has maybe come back to earth over the past 7 or so games? He hasn’t really declined offensively much at all recently other than batted ball luck so I’m not sure about the last part. I also don’t know if he’s a great hitter I’m just saying people are writing him off like he can’t be the answer at 2B and I think we have another month or so to determine that (for 2024 at least)
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 27, 2024 16:13:44 GMT -5
Is he a "great hitter"? Or is he a pretty good hitter that went on a crazy hot streak when he got called back up and has maybe come back to earth over the past 7 or so games? He hasn’t really declined offensively much at all recently other than batted ball luck so I’m not sure about the last part. I also don’t know if he’s a great hitter I’m just saying people are writing him off like he can’t be the answer at 2B and I think we have another month or so to determine that (for 2024 at least) I think it's mostly about team building philosophy. I value up the middle defense very highly, especially after the shift ban, and Valdez has been bad. If he ends up being a Devers level bat I will shake my head and accept the extra base hits but if he settles into being an above average bat with bad defense that isn't as valuable a player as you might think and comparatively less valuable to a team that has a deep lineup and a questionable middlw infield defense.
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Post by Smittyw on Jun 27, 2024 16:18:00 GMT -5
I mean, I don't think it's inconceivable that we could find a middle infield stopgap, or a starter better than Criswell/Winck, but it's also completely conceivable that nothing that's out there ends up being as attractive as what we've already got in-house. A lot could change in a month, but the fact is this is a team without any glaring holes at the moment, which makes Cora throwing down a "we'd better upgrade" gauntlet all the weirder.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 27, 2024 16:23:18 GMT -5
He hasn’t really declined offensively much at all recently other than batted ball luck so I’m not sure about the last part. I also don’t know if he’s a great hitter I’m just saying people are writing him off like he can’t be the answer at 2B and I think we have another month or so to determine that (for 2024 at least) I think it's mostly about team building philosophy. I value up the middle defense very highly, especially after the shift ban, and Valdez has been bad. If he ends up being a Devers level bat I will shake my head and accept the extra base hits but if he settles into being an above average bat with bad defense that isn't as valuable a player as you might think and comparatively less valuable to a team that has a deep lineup and a questionable middlw infield defense. The beauty of baseball being so quantifiable is that that player is, more or less and dependent on context, exactly as valuable as I think he is. We know how many runs a missed out is expected to cost and how many runs an extra hit is expected to create. If you’re talking about aesthetic preferences that’s a different conversation and I just care less about how it looks.
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 27, 2024 16:29:38 GMT -5
I think it's mostly about team building philosophy. I value up the middle defense very highly, especially after the shift ban, and Valdez has been bad. If he ends up being a Devers level bat I will shake my head and accept the extra base hits but if he settles into being an above average bat with bad defense that isn't as valuable a player as you might think and comparatively less valuable to a team that has a deep lineup and a questionable middlw infield defense. The beauty of baseball being so quantifiable is that that player is, more or less and dependent on context, exactly as valuable as I think he is. We know how many runs a missed out is expected to cost and how many runs an extra hit is expected to create. If you’re talking about aesthetic preferences that’s a different conversation and I just care less about how it looks. I'm not talking about aesthetic differences, I'm talking about comparative values to an individual team. For the same reason that a team with 4 great starters wouldn't necessarily jump at the chance to commit resources to a fifth, a team with a deep offense and bad middle infield defense might value adding a defensive minded middle infielder at the expense of a little offense. It's not aesthetic, it's philosophical. Edit: Remember when the Red Sox traded Nomar Garciaparra and his 118ops+ for Orlando Cabrera and his 98ops+ and then won the World Series?
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 27, 2024 16:40:15 GMT -5
The beauty of baseball being so quantifiable is that that player is, more or less and dependent on context, exactly as valuable as I think he is. We know how many runs a missed out is expected to cost and how many runs an extra hit is expected to create. If you’re talking about aesthetic preferences that’s a different conversation and I just care less about how it looks. I'm not talking about aesthetic differences, I'm talking about comparative values to an individual team. For the same reason that a team with 4 great starters wouldn't necessarily jump at the chance to commit resources to a fifth, a team with a deep offense and bad middle infield defense might value adding a defensive minded middle infielder at the expense of a little offense. It's not aesthetic, it's philosophical. Edit: Remember when the Red Sox traded Nomar Garciaparra and his 118ops+ for Orlando Cabrera and his 98ops+ and then won the World Series? Yes it is possible for teams to get worse and still win the championship, I'm not sure what point that proves, they very well could have won with Nomar. I get the point about balancing the roster, but I disagree that it matters. Actually, run creation scales non-linearly, so I'd argue a team with a good offense gains disproportionate value by leaning further into their strength, all else being equal.
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 27, 2024 16:51:45 GMT -5
I'm not talking about aesthetic differences, I'm talking about comparative values to an individual team. For the same reason that a team with 4 great starters wouldn't necessarily jump at the chance to commit resources to a fifth, a team with a deep offense and bad middle infield defense might value adding a defensive minded middle infielder at the expense of a little offense. It's not aesthetic, it's philosophical. Edit: Remember when the Red Sox traded Nomar Garciaparra and his 118ops+ for Orlando Cabrera and his 98ops+ and then won the World Series? Yes it is possible for teams to get worse and still win the championship, I'm not sure what point that proves, they very well could have won with Nomar. I get the point about balancing the roster, but I disagree that it matters. Actually, run creation scales non-linearly, so I'd argue a team with a good offense gains disproportionate value by leaning further into their strength, all else being equal. In what way did they get worse? They had a .700 winning percentage after the trade and a .605 winning percentage for the season. They definitely got better. Can that be put 100% on the shoulders of Orlando Cabrera and Doug Monkeywrench's defense? No, I wouldn't go that far, but they didn't get worse. I suppose this will be my last argument on the matter, I feel like I've made my point and don't want to take over this whole thread. Good defense good, bad defense bad.
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