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Predicting The 2025 Opening Day Roster
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Post by abrinker on Oct 13, 2024 19:44:49 GMT -5
I believe the Red Sox embarked on a 4-6 year rebuild plan in 2020. That's why Mookie was traded, Bogaerts was not aggressively pursued, Sale was traded, Devers was extended (he's young), Story was signed at a bargain price, and we've seen a series of one year deals (Schwarber, Renfroe, O'Neil, Turner, Duval, Pham, Hosmer, etc.). In Boston, however, one cannot say "rebuild" or even whisper "bridge" so a fascade of "contention" has been marketed. Contention not impossible (see, 2021) but it's not very likely (every other year.) So assuming the organization has been keeping its powder dry while the core and foundational talent has been rebuilt, the day is quickly approaching for big, bold action. Based upon the performance and arrival of the Big Four (Five?), maybe that is this year; perhaps it is next year. I'd like to believe that the strategic plan has always been as follows: 2024 offseason: Sign Juan Soto. 2025 offseason: Sign Vlad Guerrero, Jr. Use redundant assets to acquire high reward/low risk pitching. 2026 Lineup CF Duran LF Soto DH Guerrero 3B Devers 1B Casas RF Anthony 2B Campbell SS Mayer C Teel Bench Wong C/1B/2B/3B Rafaela OF/SS Story SS/2B/3B Defensive Catcher Trade Chips for pitching Abreu Grissom Montgomery Arias Bleis Meidroth Cespedes Valdez Yoshida and so on... At least, that is what I will dream on by the hot stove this winter. What do you expect their CBT amount to be? Assuming $75M just between those guys (Soto/Vlad), plus Duran's gonna get pricey ($15M), Devers adds another $30M and Story's still gonna be there at $23M. You'll probably have to eat $ to find a taker for Yoshida (let's say $8M) and CR's gonna be another $6M. We're up to $157M in those guys alone, and we haven't even factored in pitching. If we get a FA #1, you're probably adding another $30M, plus Bello's $9M. Closing in on $200M. Assuming rest of line up is just pre-arb guys (though Casas and Wong won't be), another $6M. Rest of starting rotation should cost at least $20M (assuming a couple of guys from the farm), and bullpen costs another $25M. Now we're at $250M, before adding another $38M for benefits, etc. $290M payroll. Oh, and that's before any extensions. And Devers, Vlad and Soto will cost $100M+ combined into eternity. No chance, IMO.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Oct 13, 2024 22:24:06 GMT -5
I guess with Crochet the question is what is his value? For Dylan Cease, the White Sox got the #58 prospect according to BA and two guys who weren't ranked but were in the top 10 of their system. MLB had Thorpe #85 and two guys in their top 10. Crochet has two years of control, as did Cease, Cease was a proven starter for multiple years, but coming off a year where his actual numbers weren't as good as the peripheral stats. Crochet is coming off of a great year but hasn't started a game before this season. I don't see a world where he costs two of the big four, and honestly while I've talked about a Mayer/Abreu package in general to get a starter, that might be an overpay for Crochet. Montgomery/Cespedes/Sandlin would probably make more sense if we did go the Crochet route. White Sox reportedly turned down offers based around a guy at the very bottom of the top-100 (no way to confirm of course) - So we should assume something not far less than Cease, but I agree he shouldn't cost as much as Cease (he also wants a new contract upon being traded). I think if the Red Sox traded 1 of the big 4 for Crochet, they should get more back in addition to Crochet (ex: Mayer+more for Crochet+Robert) - that's likely the White Sox best chance of getting a top-top prospect.
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Post by abrinker on Oct 13, 2024 22:34:29 GMT -5
I guess with Crochet the question is what is his value? For Dylan Cease, the White Sox got the #58 prospect according to BA and two guys who weren't ranked but were in the top 10 of their system. MLB had Thorpe #85 and two guys in their top 10. Crochet has two years of control, as did Cease, Cease was a proven starter for multiple years, but coming off a year where his actual numbers weren't as good as the peripheral stats. Crochet is coming off of a great year but hasn't started a game before this season. I don't see a world where he costs two of the big four, and honestly while I've talked about a Mayer/Abreu package in general to get a starter, that might be an overpay for Crochet. Montgomery/Cespedes/Sandlin would probably make more sense if we did go the Crochet route. White Sox reportedly turned down offers based around a guy at the very bottom of the top-100 (no way to confirm of course) - So we should assume something not far less than Cease, but I agree he shouldn't cost as much as Cease (he also wants a new contract upon being traded). I think if the Red Sox traded 1 of the big 4 for Crochet, they should get more back in addition to Crochet (ex: Mayer+more for Crochet+Robert) - that's likely the White Sox best chance of getting a top-top prospect. [Crossing fingers] Please not Crochet. Please not Crochet. Please not Crochet.
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Post by finaliz3d on Oct 13, 2024 23:15:45 GMT -5
White Sox reportedly turned down offers based around a guy at the very bottom of the top-100 (no way to confirm of course) - So we should assume something not far less than Cease, but I agree he shouldn't cost as much as Cease (he also wants a new contract upon being traded). I think if the Red Sox traded 1 of the big 4 for Crochet, they should get more back in addition to Crochet (ex: Mayer+more for Crochet+Robert) - that's likely the White Sox best chance of getting a top-top prospect. [Crossing fingers] Please not Crochet. Please not Crochet. Please not Crochet. I'm okay with Crochet depending on the deal, but there's other guys I'd prefer for sure.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Oct 14, 2024 6:24:11 GMT -5
Giolito mentioned this weekend that he’s recruiting former high school teammate. Max Fried. If we sign, Fried and Scott I’d be very happy.
That would allow us to trade for a really good bullpen arm. And, shape the staff very well.
We haven’t given up any elite prospects and look like a playoff team IMO. If that happens. By mid-season we will have an even better feel for how good our prospects really are. We could literally trade for anybody on market without depleting system. Maybe, a Vlad Jr. Maybe, a Seattle starter. Or, another bullpen arm.
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Post by ematz1423 on Oct 14, 2024 6:30:23 GMT -5
Giolito mentioned this weekend that he’s recruiting former high school teammate. Max Fried. If we sign, Fried and Scott I’d be very happy. That would allow us to trade for a really good bullpen arm. And, shape the staff very well. We haven’t given up any elite prospects and look like a playoff team IMO. If that happens. By mid-season we will have an even better feel for how good our prospects really are. We could literally trade for anybody on market without depleting system. Maybe, a Vlad Jr. Maybe, a Seattle starter. Or, another bullpen arm. This is my hope at least in terms of this offseason. Fried, Scott, trade for Devin Williams. That could perhaps be done for like 50-55M. Keeps them under the LT so if that's a must it's still a do able offseason. Doesn't solve their RHH thump problem or backup C spot though.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 14, 2024 7:16:17 GMT -5
Giolito mentioned this weekend that he’s recruiting former high school teammate. Max Fried. If we sign, Fried and Scott I’d be very happy. That would allow us to trade for a really good bullpen arm. And, shape the staff very well. We haven’t given up any elite prospects and look like a playoff team IMO. If that happens. By mid-season we will have an even better feel for how good our prospects really are. We could literally trade for anybody on market without depleting system. Maybe, a Vlad Jr. Maybe, a Seattle starter. Or, another bullpen arm. This is my hope at least in terms of this offseason. Fried, Scott, trade for Devin Williams. That could perhaps be done for like 50-55M. Keeps them under the LT so if that's a must it's still a do able offseason. Doesn't solve their RHH thump problem or backup C spot though. I'd think you'd have to sign Scott first before trading for Williams. I would think Scott in free agency would go to a team that woukd give him close money AND the opportunity to be a closer. If Williams is traded for first I would think Scott goes elsewhere.
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Post by teddyballgame9 on Oct 14, 2024 7:22:07 GMT -5
Giolito mentioned this weekend that he’s recruiting former high school teammate. Max Fried. If we sign, Fried and Scott I’d be very happy. That would allow us to trade for a really good bullpen arm. And, shape the staff very well. We haven’t given up any elite prospects and look like a playoff team IMO. If that happens. By mid-season we will have an even better feel for how good our prospects really are. We could literally trade for anybody on market without depleting system. Maybe, a Vlad Jr. Maybe, a Seattle starter. Or, another bullpen arm. This is my hope at least in terms of this offseason. Fried, Scott, trade for Devin Williams. That could perhaps be done for like 50-55M. Keeps them under the LT so if that's a must it's still a do able offseason. Doesn't solve their RHH thump problem or backup C spot though. If a deal with Seattle could be expanded with Casas and another big piece for pitching and Cal Raleigh, you get your potential back up catcher and RH power.
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Post by ematz1423 on Oct 14, 2024 7:43:37 GMT -5
This is my hope at least in terms of this offseason. Fried, Scott, trade for Devin Williams. That could perhaps be done for like 50-55M. Keeps them under the LT so if that's a must it's still a do able offseason. Doesn't solve their RHH thump problem or backup C spot though. If a deal with Seattle could be expanded with Casas and another big piece for pitching and Cal Raleigh, you get your potential back up catcher and RH power. Highly unlikely Mariners would entertain dealing Raleigh so that's probably a non starter.
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kwodes
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Post by kwodes on Oct 14, 2024 7:52:12 GMT -5
The more I think about it, the more I don't want them to trade from the OF. I'd love going into next year with Rafaela as a super UT guy with a starting OF of Anthony, Duran, Abreu and Rafaela and Refsnyder as RHH bench options. You improve the lineup by putting Roman in Rafaela's spot.
If you want to then trade Casas for a young pitcher and move Devers to 1st then you're improving the much maligned IF defense. You can sign Adames or Bregman and maybe your lineup takes a slight hit (I think it'd be neutral) by swapping Casas and Rafaela as everyday guys with Adames/bregman and roman. However, your IF defense and run prevention in general is much improved.
Pitching-wise, you trade for a pitcher and sign Bieber to a prove your health 2 yr deal. Then you have mega-surplus on the infield to trade from the group of Hamilton, meidroth, romy, etc for RPs while slotting Whitlock into the bullpen full time. You can even trade kutter for RP.
This is me more brainstorming and thinking out loud, but I think this more illustrates how many options Breslow and co have this year. The main thought that I think EVERYONE agrees on is that they need to consolidate for some higher end talent this offseason.
***it does suck that the tigers got hot the last 6 weeks. Now there's no shot they trade skubal.***
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asm18
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Post by asm18 on Oct 14, 2024 8:22:39 GMT -5
Giolito mentioned this weekend that he’s recruiting former high school teammate. Max Fried. If we sign, Fried and Scott I’d be very happy. That would allow us to trade for a really good bullpen arm. And, shape the staff very well. Tim Britton from The Athletic who does Contract Projections every year has Fried at seven years for $195 million. Is Lucas authorized to offer $200 mil during their hangout sessions
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Oct 14, 2024 8:46:09 GMT -5
Giolito mentioned this weekend that he’s recruiting former high school teammate. Max Fried. If we sign, Fried and Scott I’d be very happy. That would allow us to trade for a really good bullpen arm. And, shape the staff very well. We haven’t given up any elite prospects and look like a playoff team IMO. If that happens. By mid-season we will have an even better feel for how good our prospects really are. We could literally trade for anybody on market without depleting system. Maybe, a Vlad Jr. Maybe, a Seattle starter. Or, another bullpen arm. This is my hope at least in terms of this offseason. Fried, Scott, trade for Devin Williams. That could perhaps be done for like 50-55M. Keeps them under the LT so if that's a must it's still a do able offseason. Doesn't solve their RHH thump problem or backup C spot though. This is a pretty logical way to spend the money. Maybe you decide not to go after Scott and try to work a thumper through trade. Backup catcher isn’t necessarily a huge deal. You could bite the bullet and just have a Wong/Gasper tandem until Teel comes up. Really not ideal, but yeah it could work for like 2 months or so. Most backup catchers are closer to Gasper than they are Wong in terms of ability anyways.
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Post by pappyman99 on Oct 14, 2024 9:13:42 GMT -5
Think no more than 6 years for Fried
Only unreasonable contract you’d pursue should be Soto
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Post by taiwansox on Oct 14, 2024 9:32:50 GMT -5
Need a good defensive catcher lol. But really we need someone to at least mentor Wong…
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Post by ematz1423 on Oct 14, 2024 9:52:40 GMT -5
I was figuring something more along lines of what rodon got for frieds deal. I probably wouldn't go a 7th year. Other projections I've seen have him in that 6 year range but 7 wouldn't surprise me either.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 14, 2024 10:10:01 GMT -5
Giolito mentioned this weekend that he’s recruiting former high school teammate. Max Fried. If we sign, Fried and Scott I’d be very happy. That would allow us to trade for a really good bullpen arm. And, shape the staff very well. Tim Britton from The Athletic who does Contract Projections every year has Fried at seven years for $195 million. Is Lucas authorized to offer $200 mil during their hangout sessions Fried has averaged 3.5 WAR/year since 2021, ages 27-30, and has been worth $111 million per fangraphs. If he kept up that same pace over the next 7 seasons he'd be worth... $194 million.
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Post by julyanmorley on Oct 14, 2024 10:50:02 GMT -5
Yeah that contract is not remotely realistic. He was worth 3.4 WAR this year, which is about what that contract is paying for as an AAV. Not many contracts get out of line with the spreadsheet projections these days.
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Post by abrinker on Oct 14, 2024 11:33:21 GMT -5
Here are the largest SP FA contracts doled out since 2020, excluding Yamamoto since he was so young (ages at signing in parentheses):
2024 Nola (30) - 7/172M (24.5 AAV) Glasnow (30) - 5/137M (27.3 AAV)
2023 deGrom (34) - 5/185 (37 AAV) Rodon (30) - 6/162 (27 AAV) Castillo (30) - 5/108 (21.6 AAV)
2022 Berrios (27) - 7/131 (18.7 AAV) Scherzer (37) - 3/130 (43.3 AAV) Ray (30) - 5/115 (23 AAV) Gausman (30) 5/110 (22 AAV)
2020 Cole (29) - 9/324 (36 AAV) Strasburg (31) - 7/245 (35 AAV) Wheeler (29) - 5/118 (23.6 AAV)
I don't see Cole and Strasburg as comps, since the market seems to have treated those as overpays, considering more recent contracts. Also, throw out deGrom and Scherzer. They're obviously exceptions.
Age-wise, Fried lines up with the other 30 year olds. Comparing performance leading up to their contracts, Castillo and Gausman are most similar to Fried. Nola hit FA with a modestly stronger track record; whereas, Rodon and Ray were coming off stronger prior two years, but less established track records. Based on these, I'm not sure I see a lot of support for Britton's estimate. Seven years looks unrealistic, unless he were to lower AAV, like Nola. At the high end, I suppose he could be had for a similar 7/172, but I suspect that's still too high. Some say Nola took a hometown discount, but he got an extra year out of it, so pick your poison. And in retrospect, it looks like his contract was generous. Maybe he's the Rodon deal, but I don't see AAV getting north of 26M for 6 years. If he gets what Britton suggests, he'd be blowing past recent comps, but that sort of market-breaking event seems to only happen to guys who are top 5-ish pitchers, which he is not. I may be wrong, but if so, it would represent a sizable rebaselining of pitchers of his ilk, when there seems to be a fairly consistent market valuation over the last few years. My prediction: 6/156, with an injury clause due to past two years arm troubles. And for Snell, I'd go 5/135 (he's more than a year older, almost two years older than Glasnow at the time of contract).
Obviously supply and demand dynamics can force teams to over-spend rational market value, but in an offseason that figures to be somewhat weighed down due to revenue concerns and several mentions of spending constraints across the industry, I suspect buyers will have more leverage, especially since there are quite a few options in the FA marketing this year, compared to past years.
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Post by julyanmorley on Oct 14, 2024 11:58:59 GMT -5
For Fried I get fair value at roughly:
1/29 2/55 3/77 4/95 5/112 6/125 7/135
Subtract like $5 million for the QO
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Post by incandenza on Oct 14, 2024 12:06:25 GMT -5
For Fried I get fair value at roughly: 1/29 2/55 3/77 4/95 5/112 6/125 7/135 Subtract like $5 million for the QO If the Red Sox signed Fried for 10% over any of these amounts I'd feel pretty happy about it. Starts to get dicey by +20%.
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Post by abrinker on Oct 14, 2024 12:09:37 GMT -5
For Fried I get fair value at roughly: 1/29 2/55 3/77 4/95 5/112 6/125 7/135 Subtract like $5 million for the QO If the Red Sox signed Fried for 10% over any of these amounts I'd feel pretty happy about it. Starts to get dicey by +20%. Agree 100%.
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Post by abrinker on Oct 14, 2024 12:11:12 GMT -5
In my mind it's down to Fried or Snell. Either would be great, though I would give Snell more than 5 years.
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asm18
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Posts: 2,832
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Post by asm18 on Oct 14, 2024 12:21:25 GMT -5
On Max Fried, should we at all be concerned that his last two seasons have been: 2023 - 77.2 innings 2024 - a very sharp decline in xERA (in 2024 his xERA is nearly dead even with Nick Pivetta), as well a slight dip in whiff rate and K-rate. He’s still elite as always at getting ground balls and limiting hard contact, but isn’t the Breslow/Bailey/Willard philosophy come with an increased emphasis on swing and miss? I’d happily take him at the contract as laid out by julyanmorley (maybe not so much the Tim Britton valuation) but was expecting a little bit more under the hood for a guy who is going to get a huge payday: baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/max-fried-608331?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb
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Post by chaimtime on Oct 14, 2024 12:25:54 GMT -5
Max Fried is fourth in baseball in RA9 WAR since 2021. Outside of the two starts before he hit the IL, where he had clearly diminished stuff, and the two starts after he came back, where he had clearly diminished command, he had a 2.80 ERA.
Age will probably keep him from getting up into the 7/200 range, but if his arm looks healthy, he’s probably getting something close to the Rodon contract.
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Post by julyanmorley on Oct 14, 2024 12:27:13 GMT -5
On Max Fried, should we at all be concerned that his last two seasons have been: 2023 - 77.2 innings 2024 - a very sharp decline in xERA, as well a slight dip in whiff rate and K-rate. He’s still elite as always at getting ground balls and limiting hard contact, but isn’t the Breslow/Bailey/Willard philosophy come with an increased emphasis on swing and miss? I’d happily take him at the contract as laid out by julyanmorley (maybe not so much the Tim Britton valuation) but was expecting a little bit more under the hood for a guy who is going to get a huge payday: baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/max-fried-608331?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlbFried does not do very well on Stuff+ but does do very well on Driveline's "Arsenal+" metric, which as I understand it is measuring how much do his different pitches look the same at the batter's decision point and then act different after it.
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