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Jon Denney
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Post by moonstone2 on Mar 20, 2014 1:35:50 GMT -5
I recall that in between the draft and the offer, Buccholz was flown to Boston to have a one on one with Theo. I'm pretty sure that Clay's after the event attitude was significantly different than Jon's attitude. These are not at all similar situations. In fairness we don't know what Denny's attitude was after Ben spoke to him. He did agree to get help and that's a start but we still don't know if he's taking both the incident and what has happened to his career seriously. I'd bet Ben doesn't know that either.
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Post by jclmontana on Mar 20, 2014 2:02:02 GMT -5
From strictly a baseball standpoint, Denney's off field issues (immaturity, entitlement, substance use disorder, personality disorder, whatever it is or however one wants to envision the problem, it doesn't really matter) is a flaw that currently impedes Denny's ability to be successful at baseball, a flaw that Denny will have to overcome/mitigate in order to be successful on the field. Taking a narrow view, Denney's emotional/behavioral/maturity issues are a just another baseball issue, not much different than Will Middlebrook's difficulty laying off pitches out of the strike zone, Daniel Bard's control issues, Lin's inability to make hard contact, Josh Reddick's strike out rate, or Michael Bowden's flat fastball.
Some of these players were able to overcome their flaws and reach some level of success in the big leagues (or are currently a work in progress), and some these players didn't. Again, from a strict baseball perspective, Denney isn't really a special case, his flaws just trigger us in different ways.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Mar 20, 2014 7:44:40 GMT -5
Look, it's hard to be mature at 19 years old. Education aside, that's really why college is good for most of us; it gives us a structured environment to be idiots and generally get away with it with minimal repercussions. It's a big test of minor league baseball for these kids, especially the ones with a pretty good bonus ... they are out on their own in a highly-competitive profession with a little money in the pockets, and there's not the same safety net that most of us had in college. It's something to celebrate about a guy like Xander Bogaerts, who can take it all in stride and focus on what's important, because I knew A LOT more guys like Jon Denney (maybe minus the alleged arrogance to the cops) than I did Xander Bogaerts in college. And I went to a top-10 academic college.
I guess my real point in this post is to wonder what the Sox and other teams do to provide structure for these kids. The intervention like this one for Denney aside, there's a lot riding on developing them into baseball players, so I'm sure a smart team like the Sox takes this into account.
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Post by okin15 on Mar 20, 2014 9:27:13 GMT -5
I think Denney still has a shot to become a very good baseball player, but I also think the lost time PLUS the potential for him to make dumb decisions will bump him down a couple of pegs on my list. He's still a good prospect, but not as good as he was.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 20, 2014 12:17:01 GMT -5
In Denny's case I am most worried that he seems very entitled. He doesn't seem to understand that he won't get to the majors on his pedigree alone. No one cares how big a bonus he got.
Denny's career has been on the downswing for over a year now. Yet he still thinks his ticket to the majors is already written.Let's hope that this incident wakes him up and he starts to haul ass on the field and off. Time moves pretty quickly and soon his bonus will be gone. Hopefully for his sake it's not too late. This thread is getting really ridiculous. We don't know the man. We know of a few incidents where he did some bad stuff and said some dumb things. Please don't extrapolate his entire personality from that. I'm not excusing his actions in any way, and clearly he has some serious issues, but getting more specific than that is just assuming stuff we don't actually know. He's got a long road ahead of him. I wish him the best.
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Jon Denney
Mar 20, 2014 18:13:27 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by moonstone2 on Mar 20, 2014 18:13:27 GMT -5
But your actions are driven by your personality. Look you combine these incidents with the clear downward slope of his career. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there is a serious problem. I don't need to have met Mr. Denny to question his makeup. How many smoke signals do you need?
As far as the sentiment that a lot of 19 year olds are immature. That maybe true but most 19 year olds don't have a big league future. A players makeup and maturity are a big piece of that puzzle.
Denny is older than Trey Ball. You don't hear about him doing things like this. In fact reports often mention Ball's off the charts makeup.
He's only two years younger than Xander Bogarts. Denny's youth is not an excuse.
A players is more than the stats on the page.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 20, 2014 19:04:19 GMT -5
Just to be clear, when we say his "career" has been on a clear downward path, are we talking about his 74ABs in rookie ball after being drafted that same year?
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Jon Denney
Mar 20, 2014 19:16:17 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by raftsox on Mar 20, 2014 19:16:17 GMT -5
I give up. Let's just cut him now because it's obvious he doesn't have a future in the big leagues. In fact, he should just start a meth factory in his basement now.
No one ever changes or learns anything from their actions.
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Post by kman22 on Mar 20, 2014 19:26:39 GMT -5
From strictly a baseball standpoint, Denney's off field issues (immaturity, entitlement, substance use disorder, personality disorder, whatever it is or however one wants to envision the problem, it doesn't really matter) is a flaw that currently impedes Denny's ability to be successful at baseball, a flaw that Denny will have to overcome/mitigate in order to be successful on the field. Taking a narrow view, Denney's emotional/behavioral/maturity issues are a just another baseball issue, not much different than Will Middlebrook's difficulty laying off pitches out of the strike zone, Daniel Bard's control issues, Lin's inability to make hard contact, Josh Reddick's strike out rate, or Michael Bowden's flat fastball.
Some of these players were able to overcome their flaws and reach some level of success in the big leagues (or are currently a work in progress), and some these players didn't. Again, from a strict baseball perspective, Denney isn't really a special case, his flaws just trigger us in different ways.
Well said.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Mar 20, 2014 19:42:05 GMT -5
I give up. Let's just cut him now because it's obvious he doesn't have a future in the big leagues. In fact, he should just start a meth factory in his basement now. No one ever changes or learns anything from their actions. Isn't that the issue though? This isn't just one incident. It is multiple incidents. He hasn't shown that he can learn from his mistakes. And yes - of course he can turn it around. He is extremely talented. But I'm pessimistic. I think it is likely that his makeup is the reason he dropped in the draft. The fact that so many teams passed on him speaks to the fact that his makeup could negatively impact his career projection. The fact that he has had multiple run-ins with the law and has conducted himself the way he has only further verifies this. I could buy the "he's young and made a mistake" line if it was just one incident, but a 19-year old should not need this to happen more than once before he changes his behavior. Drake Britton made a mistake. Cody Kukuk made a mistake. Bryce Brentz made a mistake. Clay Buchholz made a mistake. Jon Denny keeps making mistakes. There is a difference.
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Post by moonstone2 on Mar 20, 2014 21:56:33 GMT -5
Just to be clear, when we say his "career" has been on a clear downward path, are we talking about his 74ABs in rookie ball after being drafted that same year? Please see the post at the top of his thread. Jon Denny went from a consensus first round pick to a getting a 2nd round bonus to now being ranked 50th on the SP site. This isn't about six weeks in the GCL. His prospect status has been falling for over a year now.
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Post by moonstone2 on Mar 20, 2014 22:05:26 GMT -5
I give up. Let's just cut him now because it's obvious he doesn't have a future in the big leagues. In fact, he should just start a meth factory in his basement now. No one ever changes or learns anything from their actions. Never said cut him Never said he could not turn his life around. I do think that he shouldn't be allowed back on the field until he shows he's taking all this seriously. When he does it should be at Ft. Myers. Promotions are rewards not birth rights.
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Post by sdiaz1 on Mar 21, 2014 1:11:12 GMT -5
I honestly could care less what type of person the kid is, and this entire five pages of back and forth filled with couch-chair psychology, moral judgments, and hyperbole does nothing for me.
But I keep coming back because I am curious if anyone will possibly add something constructive to the dialogue and explain how these current legal problems will likely affect Denney's playing situation. Is he going to be stuck in XST as the charges go through the system or will he be able to play affiliated ball throughout most of the summer? How could be this entire "ordeal" impact his development - as a result of a lack of playing and getting reps not in any sort of holistic sense.
Please don't respond with hypotheticals about how is drinking/ bad attitude/ cockiness will limit his ability to develop, or how he will drink himself into a hole. After all in many ways Mickey Mantle checked most of those boxes and though his life may have been a mess he was still a good ballplayer - and maybe I am an asshole, but to me the kid is a ballplayer, the type of man he becomes means next to nothing to me as long as he provides value to the team.
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Post by moonstone2 on Mar 21, 2014 5:19:05 GMT -5
Sure all he has to do is be the most talented player to come along in 30 years and he'll be all set.
As good as Mantle was most, including Mantle himself, believed that he should have been even better. Drinking held him back.
The game is much more competitive today than it was in the 50s. Most draftees can forget about a substantial major league career unless they haul ass.
Call it "pop psychology" all you want. Denny isn't much of a prospect right now. Unless he changes his attitude he won't be.
Who you are as a person makes a big difference in your development.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Mar 21, 2014 7:01:47 GMT -5
The drinking is a problem but the attitude is a huge problem. To me this kid doesn't believe in himself yet or he wouldn't be talking this sort of ridiculous trash. Even when drunk it is indicative of his inner thoughts. He is a washout in rocket speed unless he completely reassesses the situation immediately, Holds a small press conference addressing this series of problems by apologizing to everyone involved profusely and pledging to be a better person going forward,,,and then walking the talk. Anything short of that and he will spend every year of Redsox control over him either out of baseball or in the minors. We can't wait for him to reach 25 before he wakes up. That is what I would advise him to do. Everyone cheers sincere redemption. This will follow him forever, even effecting umpire calls and such, his relations with everyone in baseball unless he looks at this as a rock bottom event and changes immediately.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 21, 2014 7:49:11 GMT -5
Is this thread on a loop?
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Post by jmei on Mar 21, 2014 12:20:58 GMT -5
Denney may very well be immature or have an entitled attitude (or whatever else you've concluded about his personal character based on a handful of incidents). But, again, all we're concerned about here is how those issues might affect his development as a professional baseball player. I've yet to hear a coherent explanation about how his being an arrogant jerk is going to make him a worse player on the field.
Yes, it might be a problem if he was an alcoholic, but (a) we can't conclude that based on these reports alone and (b) there are plenty of players with alcohol problems who nonetheless succeeded as professional baseball players (including more than a few members of the 2004 World Champions). Assuming that his drop in draft stock was because of his makeup or attitude issues is a huge leap of faith, and one I wouldn't make without independent corroboration. Indeed, the only available evidence runs contrary to that hypothesis (Cherington stating that the organization was unaware of any of Denney's issues prior to drafting him), and there were plenty of scouting reasons for his drop as well.
To extrapolate from these incidents and conclude that he won't put in the necessary work or listen to his coaches is a similarly unwarranted leap of faith. One does not become a third round draft pick by being lazy or not taking instruction, and these incidents tell us nothing about his work ethic or his preparation or his seriousness about being a professional baseball player. Yes, this incident will hurt his development, but that's mostly because the organization will levy some sort of punitive measure to try and deter him from pulling this crap in the future. It's a setback, but one that should not be blown out of proportion; similar incidents do not have appeared to derail the careers of Britton or Kukuk, and until we have reports of him dogging it on the field, I don't feel comfortable putting him on the Bailey/Egan/Almanzar track.
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Post by ramireja on Mar 21, 2014 12:46:24 GMT -5
Denney may very well be immature or have an entitled attitude (or whatever else you've concluded about his personal character based on a handful of incidents). But, again, all we're concerned about here is how those issues might affect his development as a professional baseball player. I've yet to hear a coherent explanation about how his being an arrogant jerk is going to make him a worse player on the field. Yes, it might be a problem if he was an alcoholic, but (a) we can't conclude that based on these reports alone and (b) there are plenty of players with alcohol problems who nonetheless succeeded as professional baseball players (including more than a few members of the 2004 World Champions). Assuming that his drop in draft stock was because of his makeup or attitude issues is a huge leap of faith, and one I wouldn't make without independent corroboration. Indeed, the only available evidence runs contrary to that hypothesis (Cherington stating that the organization was unaware of any of Denney's issues prior to drafting him), and there were plenty of scouting reasons for his drop as well. To extrapolate from these incidents and conclude that he won't put in the necessary work or listen to his coaches is a similarly unwarranted leap of faith. One does not become a third round draft pick by being lazy or not taking instruction, and these incidents tell us nothing about his work ethic or his preparation or his seriousness about being a professional baseball player. Yes, this incident will hurt his development, but that's mostly because the organization will levy some sort of punitive measure to try and deter him from pulling this crap in the future. It's a setback, but one that should not be blown out of proportion; similar incidents do not have appeared to derail the careers of Britton or Kukuk, and until we have reports of him dogging it on the field, I don't feel comfortable putting him on the Bailey/Egan/Almanzar track. I think the problem is that these two may be related. You don't become a third round pick by being lazy or not taking instruction, but perhaps you do drop from a potential top 10 pick to the 3rd round for these reasons. There were definitely scouting reasons for his drop, but what is interesting is that the Jon Denney going into his senior season apparently looked like a completely different Jon Denney after the season. If pay close attention to the timing of the scouting reports, there is a mysterious and sudden decline among these reports. Just a couple of examples (I'm sure there are more): Garrioch raved about Denney around this time last year, saying his bat was more advanced than Wil Myers and Tyler Austin at similar points in their careers. He saw him as a lock for the top 10 and a future star. after the senior season though, Keith Law had this to say: Yes we're speculating, and yes we're making assumptions.....but the mounting evidence makes it hard to believe that his constellation of problems (not necessarily an 'alcohol' problem, but perhaps a greater makeup problem) have nothing to do with his underwhelming senior year and his underwhelming sox debut. Clearly, a very talented player made strong impressions across the baseball scouting after his junior year. This player all but disappeared and we're left wondering why.
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Post by sdiaz1 on Mar 21, 2014 12:52:33 GMT -5
But I keep coming back because I am curious if anyone will possibly add something constructive to the dialogue and explain how these current legal problems will likely affect Denney's playing situation. Is he going to be stuck in XST as the charges go through the system or will he be able to play affiliated ball throughout most of the summer? How could be this entire "ordeal" impact his development - as a result of a lack of playing and getting reps not in any sort of holistic sense. I am not asking for a lot ,just baseball based discussion on a baseball prospect forum. That and a unicorn. This thread at almost six pages has an incredible lack of any actual news or baseball related posts. And no being a good person has nothing to do with developing into a solid professional ballplayer: Ugi Urbina, Jose Canseco, Brett Myers, Sydney Ponson, Milton Bradley, Scott Erickson, Kirby Puckett, Willfredo Cordero, Dante Bichete and so on.
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 21, 2014 13:01:44 GMT -5
The problem is that Denney can't get on the baseball field. Last year he was given a pass for his poor play because nobody was quite sure what happened to him his Senior year, and he was a first year pro. Now, at 19, he'd have been a likely candidate for a full-season league. The fall instucts reports on him were so disastrous that he apparently wasn't even in the discussion for BA's Top 30. Like ramireja said, Keith Law was so confused by how much he'd dropped off in one year that he figured that Denney must have had some physical illness.
So in that way, it's reminiscent of Austin Bailey. It was impossible to discuss him as an actual baseball player, because nobody ever got to see him actually play baseball.
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Post by sdiaz1 on Mar 21, 2014 13:06:33 GMT -5
Will he still be able to make the jump to affiliated ball this summer or will have to stay behind in XST or instructs as he sorts through the legal repercussions? Because missing this upcoming year could certainly be a major impediment to his development.
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Post by jmei on Mar 21, 2014 13:59:59 GMT -5
Denney may very well be immature or have an entitled attitude (or whatever else you've concluded about his personal character based on a handful of incidents). But, again, all we're concerned about here is how those issues might affect his development as a professional baseball player. I've yet to hear a coherent explanation about how his being an arrogant jerk is going to make him a worse player on the field. Yes, it might be a problem if he was an alcoholic, but (a) we can't conclude that based on these reports alone and (b) there are plenty of players with alcohol problems who nonetheless succeeded as professional baseball players (including more than a few members of the 2004 World Champions). Assuming that his drop in draft stock was because of his makeup or attitude issues is a huge leap of faith, and one I wouldn't make without independent corroboration. Indeed, the only available evidence runs contrary to that hypothesis (Cherington stating that the organization was unaware of any of Denney's issues prior to drafting him), and there were plenty of scouting reasons for his drop as well. To extrapolate from these incidents and conclude that he won't put in the necessary work or listen to his coaches is a similarly unwarranted leap of faith. One does not become a third round draft pick by being lazy or not taking instruction, and these incidents tell us nothing about his work ethic or his preparation or his seriousness about being a professional baseball player. Yes, this incident will hurt his development, but that's mostly because the organization will levy some sort of punitive measure to try and deter him from pulling this crap in the future. It's a setback, but one that should not be blown out of proportion; similar incidents do not have appeared to derail the careers of Britton or Kukuk, and until we have reports of him dogging it on the field, I don't feel comfortable putting him on the Bailey/Egan/Almanzar track. I think the problem is that these two may be related. You don't become a third round pick by being lazy or not taking instruction, but perhaps you do drop from a potential top 10 pick to the 3rd round for these reasons. There were definitely scouting reasons for his drop, but what is interesting is that the Jon Denney going into his senior season apparently looked like a completely different Jon Denney after the season. If pay close attention to the timing of the scouting reports, there is a mysterious and sudden decline among these reports. Just a couple of examples (I'm sure there are more): Garrioch raved about Denney around this time last year, saying his bat was more advanced than Wil Myers and Tyler Austin at similar points in their careers. He saw him as a lock for the top 10 and a future star. after the senior season though, Keith Law had this to say: Yes we're speculating, and yes we're making assumptions.....but the mounting evidence makes it hard to believe that his constellation of problems (not necessarily an 'alcohol' problem, but perhaps a greater makeup problem) have nothing to do with his underwhelming senior year and his underwhelming sox debut. Clearly, a very talented player made strong impressions across the baseball scouting after his junior year. This player all but disappeared and we're left wondering why. The timing is certainly suggestive, but I don't think there's a single report linking his stock drop to makeup/work ethic issues. If that was the driving factor in his decline, you'd think someone would mention it in a report somewhere, right? ADD: I decided to look more into it, and Alex Speier does have a line in an article on his arrest questioning his makeup during his pro debut. Maybe there are real questions there. Still, I wouldn't draw too strong a conclusion.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Mar 21, 2014 15:09:05 GMT -5
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....
Mr. Denney absolutely looks like a duck to me. I don't think this is a keirkegaardian leap of faith here. This guy is in serious trouble in his career. He needs to understand that quickly. I'd suspend him indefinitely unless he participates in regular blood tests and pyschological counseling.
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Post by ramireja on Mar 21, 2014 15:39:23 GMT -5
The timing is certainly suggestive, but I don't think there's a single report linking his stock drop to makeup/work ethic issues. If that was the driving factor in his decline, you'd think someone would mention it in a report somewhere, right? ADD: I decided to look more into it, and Alex Speier does have a line in an article on his arrest questioning his makeup during his pro debut. Maybe there are real questions there. Still, I wouldn't draw too strong a conclusion. Well I'd say that the guys writing the scouting reports are getting more info on performance and less info on makeup/work ethic. The scouting reports suggest a very noticeable decline in performance (perhaps even effort/energy given what Law had to say). Its not like in addition to these reports there are conflicting reports about strong makeup and work ethic, these attributes simply aren't part of the reports.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 21, 2014 16:12:29 GMT -5
Let's pretend we're all in a room with Denney. What would you say to him?
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