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Napoli re-signs for 2/$32mm
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Post by docman on Dec 7, 2013 18:43:32 GMT -5
Great re-signing for the Red Sox. Only had to go two years so obviously the Red Sox have a player playing for them who wants to play for them, which is a good thing. Hope he has two more years like the year he had last year. Glad Carp is still there to be his backup. Lavarnway, you're really missing the boat on the difference the OBP makes and the pitches that it takes to retire Napoli. He strikes out a ton, walks a good deal and makes pitchers throw a ton of pitches to him. He wears pitchers out. By October, Farrell couldn't have impatient WMB hacking away. The one issue that concerns me about the Sox lineup is that there will be WMB and AJP hacking away as Pierzynski runs counter to what the Red Sox offense re-established last year - making the pitcher work and work. Hopefully WMB improves his discipline and or has his lack of discipline somewhat offset by glowing power numbers. Well, Will is young, so there's a chance that he'll learn to be more patient. Welcome back, Nap!
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 7, 2013 20:51:27 GMT -5
Great re-signing for the Red Sox. Only had to go two years so obviously the Red Sox have a player playing for them who wants to play for them, which is a good thing. Hope he has two more years like the year he had last year. Glad Carp is still there to be his backup. Lavarnway, you're really missing the boat on the difference the OBP makes and the pitches that it takes to retire Napoli. He strikes out a ton, walks a good deal and makes pitchers throw a ton of pitches to him. He wears pitchers out. By October, Farrell couldn't have impatient WMB hacking away. The one issue that concerns me about the Sox lineup is that there will be WMB and AJP hacking away as Pierzynski runs counter to what the Red Sox offense re-established last year - making the pitcher work and work. Hopefully WMB improves his discipline and or has his lack of discipline somewhat offset by glowing power numbers. I think the team discipline will improve overall. Yes we have two hackers but Jacoby and Drew are nowhere near as disciplined as Xander and Jackie project to be.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 7, 2013 21:36:59 GMT -5
Great re-signing for the Red Sox. Only had to go two years so obviously the Red Sox have a player playing for them who wants to play for them, which is a good thing. Hope he has two more years like the year he had last year. Glad Carp is still there to be his backup. Lavarnway, you're really missing the boat on the difference the OBP makes and the pitches that it takes to retire Napoli. He strikes out a ton, walks a good deal and makes pitchers throw a ton of pitches to him. He wears pitchers out. By October, Farrell couldn't have impatient WMB hacking away. The one issue that concerns me about the Sox lineup is that there will be WMB and AJP hacking away as Pierzynski runs counter to what the Red Sox offense re-established last year - making the pitcher work and work. Hopefully WMB improves his discipline and or has his lack of discipline somewhat offset by glowing power numbers. I think the team discipline will improve overall. Yes we have two hackers but Jacoby and Drew are nowhere near as disciplined as Xander and Jackie project to be. Drew struck out a bunch but he wasn't a hacker. The man knew how to draw a walk. That's why he had just a .253 BA but an above average OBP. Jacoby also had a .350 OBP. He wasn't Henderson but he could take an occasional walk. AJ Pierzynski takes the least amount of pitches. His OBP is pretty much his batting average. Hopefully WMB, because he is young, will gain more patience at the plate. His track record has never been great in that respect, though. I do agree that Bradley and Bogaerts come to the majors with a pretty good plan at the plate, and so will Cecchini once he's ready.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 7, 2013 22:02:04 GMT -5
If we are talking pure number of pitches, I believe Bogaerts, Bradley, Pierzynski, Middlebrooks will see more pitches than 2013 Middlebrooks, Salty, Jacoby, Drew.
And I didn't mean to imply that either Jacoby or Drew were hackers. I just think we will see a slight uptick in team discipline.
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Post by neldogger on Dec 7, 2013 22:27:00 GMT -5
bad signing very overrated and now overpaid. he lead the league in pitches seen because pitchers knew he would swing at balls outside the zone. pitchers would throw high fastballs for strikes then junk outside the strike zone but when they needed to here comes high fastball for the strikeout and once awhile he would let it go for a walk.
16m for .230 20hr smh. thank you for the world series but come on he very replacable.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 7, 2013 22:37:45 GMT -5
A lot of pitches is a lot of pitches. Plus, you are conveniently forgetting all the balls he could off. If you say he's replaceable, give a legit alternative that brings what he does or something different that adds up to comparable value.
Team fit and building comes into play as well when talking a 2 year deal. It fits salary wise, production wise and positionally. What else do you want? I'm not sure what else they'd be able to do with the money that's make the team better. All these scenarios with multiple move parts sound great on paper (well some do) but are very difficult to execute.
Sometimes it seems like people think all players are in play and can simply just be had by doing X-Y and Z
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 7, 2013 22:51:10 GMT -5
bad signing very overrated and now overpaid. he lead the league in pitches seen because pitchers knew he would swing at balls outside the zone. pitchers would throw high fastballs for strikes then junk outside the strike zone but when they needed to here comes high fastball for the strikeout and once awhile he would let it go for a walk. 16m for .230 20hr smh. thank you for the world series but come on he very replacable. He doesn't always swing at pitches outside the strike zone. If he did, he wouldn't have had 70 something walks last season - one of the top figures on the club - so that's a lot more than once in a while. The guy's OBP is above average. His slugging average is well above average. He's a gold glove caliber 1b and he's signed on a short deal. What more do you really want?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 7, 2013 23:23:20 GMT -5
bad signing very overrated and now overpaid. he lead the league in pitches seen because pitchers knew he would swing at balls outside the zone. pitchers would throw high fastballs for strikes then junk outside the strike zone but when they needed to here comes high fastball for the strikeout and once awhile he would let it go for a walk. 16m for .230 20hr smh. thank you for the world series but come on he very replacable. Welcome to the site. Just a note, in the future please use punctuation, grammar, spelling, etc. Anyway, as for Napoli, I think the Brooks Baseball description is apt: www.brooksbaseball.net/h_landing.php?player=435063So it's not that he was likely to chase, but that he swung and missed a lot when he did swing. That said, .259/.360/.482 speaks for itself. He was 14th in the AL in slugging and 16th in obp. 8th among MLB first basemen in both. And he's proven to be outstanding defensively. The club is paying a little more to keep the contract to two years, but it's not a gross overpay.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 7, 2013 23:35:06 GMT -5
This was exactly the sort of thing they did last year, and they cashed in. They're doing it again with Badenhop, Mujica, and Napoli: find value, pay market rate or above, go shortterm on the length. They'll probably keep doing it till it stops working.
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Post by c00lryan on Dec 7, 2013 23:52:37 GMT -5
bad signing very overrated and now overpaid. he lead the league in pitches seen because pitchers knew he would swing at balls outside the zone. pitchers would throw high fastballs for strikes then junk outside the strike zone but when they needed to here comes high fastball for the strikeout and once awhile he would let it go for a walk. 16m for .230 20hr smh. thank you for the world series but come on he very replacable. Who would you have suggested as an alternative? In addition to being one of the best defensive 1st baseman in the league, he offers substantially more right-handed power than 95% of MLB. His .255 ISO is 3rd best amongst all 1st baseman between 2011 - 2013, behind Chris Davis and Miguel Cabrera (he's 8th in ISO during that same time period for ALL hitters, behind Bautista, Stanton, Ortiz, Granderson, Braun, in case you were wondering). Steamer projects him to be a top 10-15 First Baseman in WAR (2.1), wOBA (.357), and OPS (.807) in 2014. 16/mil a year is nothing to sneeze at, but given the other options on the market and stability he adds to the lineup (offensively and defensively), it's a great signing. Plus, the dude absolutely dominates the celebration scene... hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/03/mike-napoli-drunk-shirtless-on-the-streets-of-boston/How could you not want him back?
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Dec 8, 2013 18:39:50 GMT -5
It's done already so I'll drop this but overall, here is what I would have preferred they do:
1) Use that $16 mil to help sign Choo, who has even better OBP by a wide margin plus sees a ton of pitches also. Has a great hit chart for Fenway and slots in as a plus defender in Fenway's left field ( IMO ).
2) Trade Nava for significant value as he would no longer be needed. We were not playing him anyway, per last year's world series. Bundle him as part of a package maybe including Dempster or Peavy to land Billy Butler for 1st base, an even better hitter than Napoli in Fenway for almost 1/2 the price. If a prospect or 2 is needed to get that deal done, do it.
3) If Butler is not available, roll the dice with Michael Morse, who is coming off wrist surgery, on a $3 mil deal, 1 year, as a secondary platoon guy with Carp as the primary guy at 1st and use the Dempster / Peavy option to get enough money to go after Tanaka. Morse should be a significant run producer if he is healthy, and he was not healthy last year. He should be available cheap. If he doesn't work out we have Cechinni or another platoon type option by year end. All this team has to do is get in the playoffs and this team is good enough to do that even if Morse does an epic fail. By the time the playoffs hit I think Cechinni will be ready and then we could slot Middlebrooks or Cechinni some at 1st if necessary.
Net result: A better lineup with Choo in it and potentially Butler. A slot open for Cechinni who I think is a special player. I think Cechinni will be our top prospect by midyear 2014.
That is what I would have done with the $16 mil we gave Napoli.
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Post by jmei on Dec 8, 2013 19:02:39 GMT -5
Joel Sherman ?@joelsherman1 Club on Shin-Soo Choo say Ellsbury (7-$153M) is guidepost in negotiations, expect final number between Werth (7-$126M)/Ellsbury
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 8, 2013 21:53:30 GMT -5
I hate the Napoli signing. Not because of the signing, but because I'm going to have to listen to people bitch about it for the next two years.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 8, 2013 21:57:31 GMT -5
Butler isn't getting moved. He's a strong RHH in a lineup full of LHH. They'd just create another big hole by trading him.
Morse is also a bad fit for this lineup. His average pitches per plate appearance would be the lowest on the Sox (2013 Sox) and he doesn't walk. Basically, adding another impatient hitter when you've already added AJ.
If Nava is similar to last year, then Nava/Gomes + Napoli is better offense and defense then Choo+Morse. Yes, Gomes would still be on the team to hit vs LHP for Choo like he does Nava, but if you're going to pay him 20m to platoon then that's just dumb.
I like Butler a lot but he's a pipe dream right now. He could be a nice target after 2015 when he's a free agent to replace Papi.
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Post by semperfisox on Dec 8, 2013 22:06:08 GMT -5
I'd be really pissed if we spent all that $ on Choo. Don't think Ben is that dumb.
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Post by mredsox89 on Dec 8, 2013 22:13:32 GMT -5
I'd be really pissed if we spent all that $ on Choo. Don't think Ben is that dumb. I can't imagine them going 7 years or $100M+ on Choo when they didn't go there for Ellsbury Plus, the only way they can add payroll or at least anything beyond $5 AAV is by trading Dempster and/or Peavy
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Dec 8, 2013 23:17:00 GMT -5
No doubt when Napoli swings and misses over and over next year you will hear some bitching. Funny how we don't hear those same naysayers now and all we hear from everyone is "Great Sign".
I wasn't one of them before but he is what he is. To me, Choo was worth almost as much as Ellsbury TO THIS TEAM. His bat was more optimized for Fenway. He was more of an on base guy, and sees more pitches than Ellsbury. More power...etc. Consistently healthy. A strong case could be made that Choo was worth MORE to the Redsox than Ellsbury considering the comparative fits of both players and the availability of a replacement CF prospect in JBJ ...etc.
I see the inflated salary numbers but Choo is not worth as much to most other teams as Ellsbury was. Ellsbury plays better defense at a premium position and has a lot of important strengths which are more appealing in a park optimized for him, as Yankee stadium clearly was. The guy should be huge next year for the Yanks. Also, the Dodgers and Yanks are probably not in on Choo, which should keep the costs more under control.
No doubt Choo could still get a deal of 6 years and $120 mil though, which probably was more than the Redsox wanted to go. This is over now. Choo ain't coming to Boston. Personally I'm not excited Napoli was our big sign. I'm surprised most of you are. And I also wouldn't be surprised if no one signs Drew before the signing period is through. We may not even get a pick from his departure. To me, this off season has been mediocre.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Dec 8, 2013 23:23:44 GMT -5
Butler isn't getting moved. He's a strong RHH in a lineup full of LHH. They'd just create another big hole by trading him. Morse is also a bad fit for this lineup. His average pitches per plate appearance would be the lowest on the Sox (2013 Sox) and he doesn't walk. Basically, adding another impatient hitter when you've already added AJ. If Nava is similar to last year, then Nava/Gomes + Napoli is better offense and defense then Choo+Morse. Yes, Gomes would still be on the team to hit vs LHP for Choo like he does abaca, but if you're going to pay him 20m to platoon then that's just dumb. I like Butler a lot but he's a pipe dream right now. He could be a nice target after 2015 when he's a free agent to replace Papi. Here is an entire page of links where reporters and analysts were speculating about the Royals willingness to trade Butler this year. Most of them indicating he was being shopped: www.google.com/search?q=billy+butler+rumors&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-aIt seems that you and I disagree on EVERYTHING.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 8, 2013 23:25:57 GMT -5
No doubt Choo could still get a deal of 6 years and $120 mil though, which probably was more than the Redsox wanted to go. This is over now. Choo ain't coming to Boston. Personally I'm not excited Napoli was our big sign. I'm surprised most of you are. And I also wouldn't be surprised if no one signs Drew before the signing period is through. We may not even get a pick from his departure. To me, this off season has been mediocre. This is where I stop arguing and start making cash bets. How much is it gonna be?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 8, 2013 23:34:12 GMT -5
And I also wouldn't be surprised if no one signs Drew before the signing period is through. We may not even get a pick from his departure. To me, this off season has been mediocre. You realize for that to happen he either needs to sign a minor league deal or literally not sign with a team? There is zero chance of that happening. His agent is Scott Boras for crying out loud.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 8, 2013 23:36:03 GMT -5
Damnit Chris, I'm trying to make some money here...
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Post by taftreign on Dec 8, 2013 23:36:40 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken the team receives a pick as long as Drew signs before the June draft. I see zero scenarios in which Drew is still sitting on the market come June. He'll sign a deal somewhere for a discount long before it comes to that.
Napoli does leave a little to be desired with his high K rates but he offers value as the best combination of power and defense at 1B on the market. He is familiar with what it takes to play in Boston. Perhaps the most important support for signing Napoli is the players themselves went to bat for him. Not that you want your players running the team in any way but they have confidence in him and the front office agreed enough to make it happen.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Dec 8, 2013 23:43:39 GMT -5
I hate the Napoli signing. Not because of the signing, but because I'm going to have to listen to people bitch about it for the next two years. I'm not sure what you're talking about.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 9, 2013 0:04:23 GMT -5
Buster said in October they say be willing to deal him. Then the Rumor Mill started mostly from teams wanting him. If this were 6 weeks ago, the conversation nay be different. Basically, KC had to sign Beltran and even then I font see why they would've traded. him. The teams biggest problem was scoring runs. He's one of the only RHH in the lineup. So is it possible, yes anything is possible, but Beltran is in NY. Here's a good article from KC. www.kansascity.com/2013/10/22/4570215/royals-willing-to-deal-butler.htmlI don't disagree with everything you think, just a lot of it.
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Post by sdiaz1 on Dec 9, 2013 0:06:59 GMT -5
Lets just point out a few facts: 1) Shin Soo Choo is an excellent baseball player who is coming off a fantastic season where he put up an FWAR of 5.2. 2) However, he has only produced more than 5 WAR once and that was in 2010. In between those years he posted 3.7 WAR over 240 games in 2011 & 2012. 3) His defense is now below average, even in right field. 4) Steamer projects him to post 3.2 WAR in 2014, while Oliver predicts 4.8. Lets split the difference and say that he is projected to be a 4 win player in 2014. 5) The Sox currently have 4 outfielders. The two who are slotted to play left field next season posted WRC+ last season of 129 and 109 respectively, are suitable platoon mates, and are paid very little. They are however poor defenders. 7) Most insiders are expecting Shoo to sign a seven year deal for upwards to 140 million dollars- that means he would be under contract through the age of 39.
Are really telling me, that the best option is to sign Choo for maybe one or two more "prime" seasons, and then continue to pay him through his decline all the way to the point where he likely will be completely useless, while we have a cheap in house option that will replicate at least 70% of his production?
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