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Napoli re-signs for 2/$32mm
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 9, 2013 0:11:00 GMT -5
I think most people are happy with the sign because it's 2 years. You can't judge AAV between a 5-7 year deal and a 2-3 year deal. Is Napoli worth 16m? Yes when it's a 2 year deal. Definitely no, if it's 4+. It also depends how it fits into the team during the life of the deal and here it fits perfectly.
Personally, I think first base defense is under-rated in how important it can be.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Dec 9, 2013 0:32:30 GMT -5
As I said above, I think Choo could cost as much as $120 mil over 6 years. And up until that point yes, I would rather have him than Napoli. Look at his hit chart. He's a mini big Papi with the bat in terms of his hit chart. He would pepper the wall in Fenway. His numbers probably even go up in Fenway. He's worth more to us than maybe any other team in baseball.
He may even get a 7 year deal for more money but some reports said he might be a 5 year deal also. Maybe he doesn't want to be committed to one team that long. Maybe he might want the option of going back to Asia. I'm not saying I would pay him an unlimited amount.
I vaguely remember a player or 2 who had FA compensation attached who sat out until June. Lohse maybe came close? Maybe I'm wrong. Drew appears to not be as attactive an option as people were saying around here last fall. Maybe with the pick attached most teams don't even want to give him a 20 mil deal over 3 years. Maybe if he sits things out some he can sign a bigger deal in June. The value of the lost pick has gone up recently ...right? Maybe a compensation round pick is worth $10 mil now. If it means he can sign a deal with some team in contention in June, for a team with a SS injury for example, for a higher rate than now, it might be worth it to some players to sit things out.
I said: "And I also wouldn't be surprised if no one signs Drew before the signing period is through. We may not even get a pick from his departure."
I agree that he probably signs. I wouldn't count on it though at this point.
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Post by p23w on Dec 9, 2013 2:32:57 GMT -5
I think most people are happy with the sign because it's 2 years. You can't judge AAV between a 5-7 year deal and a 2-3 year deal. Is Napoli worth 16m? Yes when it's a 2 year deal. Definitely no, if it's 4+. It also depends how it fits into the team during the life of the deal and here it fits perfectly. Personally, I think first base defense is under-rated in how important it can be. Happy? Relieved would be my reaction. The bat is OK (it's the swing and misses that annoy me) I welcome the glove work. Not pretty to look at but who can argue the results? And I concur, first base defense is totally under rated by most.... and definitely by the televised production crews. I think Farrell and the Sox infielders are breathing a lot easier now.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 9, 2013 6:43:42 GMT -5
I vaguely remember a player or 2 who had FA compensation attached who sat out until June. Lohse maybe came close? Maybe I'm wrong. Drew appears to not be as attactive an option as people were saying around here last fall. Maybe with the pick attached most teams don't even want to give him a 20 mil deal over 3 years. Maybe if he sits things out some he can sign a bigger deal in June. The value of the lost pick has gone up recently ...right? Maybe a compensation round pick is worth $10 mil now. If it means he can sign a deal with some team in contention in June, for a team with a SS injury for example, for a higher rate than now, it might be worth it to some players to sit things out. I said: "And I also wouldn't be surprised if no one signs Drew before the signing period is through. We may not even get a pick from his departure." I agree that he probably signs. I wouldn't count on it though at this point. "Vaguely remember?" This is really easy to check. There were nine guys who got QOs. Michael Bourn: signed on 2/15 Josh Hamilton: signed on 12/15 Hiroki Kuroda: signed on 12/7 Adam LaRoche: signed on 1/8 Kyle Lohse: signed on 3/25 David Ortiz: signed on 11/5 Rafael Soriano: signed on 1/17 Nick Swisher: signed on 1/3 BJ Upton: signed on 11/29 The QO definitely affected what some of those guys got, particularly Bourn and Lohse, and it certainly caused those players to sign later in the offseason than they probably otherwise would have, but again, there's no way a player who is good enough to receive a QO is going to not sign. It's not like Drew is some Roy Oswalt/Roger Clemens pitcher that would benefit from sitting out half the season. You were very clear that you weren't predicting that he wouldn't sign or anything. That doesn't make the sentiment that you did express any less silly, especially when the player is represented by one of the best agents in the game, a guy who got Soriano the deal he did despite being a relief pitcher with a QO attached to him.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 9, 2013 6:49:48 GMT -5
For some unknown reason, some posters seem to think Drew is minced meat. He's not, he's a significantly above average all around shortstop who didn't happen to fit the Sox plans.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Dec 9, 2013 9:07:31 GMT -5
The world is an evolving place. The value of a pick is obviously increasing and more teams at the top of the food chain now want to stay under the cap. There seems to be an increasing hesitance to sign FA players with qualifying offer compensation attached. It is obviously restraining salaries for all QO FA players. It's not silly to be aware of an evolving trend.
So what do individual players do about it? If the value of a supplemental pick is now $10 mil, would it not make Drew worth $10 mil more if he signed in June, at least going forward from that point. He would lose some potential income before June but he also would almost be guaranteed to be healthy in June when he did come back. Hypothetically he would lose about 1/2 the season so would he lose $10 mil in salary if he sat out 1/2 the year? I think not. He is not a $20 mil a year player. Would he also maybe have more control over his destiny, as in which team he plays for if he waits it out? Maybe, if his current options are not good.
You cited 2 players yourself Chris who chose to wait before signing. Possibly there are others such as Andy Petite. A veteran player is more likely to want more control over his playing environment. Drew strikes me as potentially that kind of guy. His brother was. Not saying it's likely. I'm saying it's actually possible.
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Post by jmei on Dec 9, 2013 10:05:02 GMT -5
You love these "it's not likely, but there's a chance!" hypotheticals. Let's just chalk it up to a difference in opinion in terms of how likely an event has to be to be worth speculating over.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 9, 2013 11:00:46 GMT -5
Those were all old players who a) likely wouldn't have even held up over the course of 162, and b) wanted to play only in very specific circumstances and wouldn't have played at all if those circumstances hadn't come about (e.g., Pettitte playing only for either New York or Houston).
There is no legitimate reason to think that Drew would consider sitting until midseason other than a stubborn resistance to admitting that your original point was an awful one. It doesn't even make financial sense, given that he'd be getting a prorated contract at that point.
This isn't the first time you've seemed to think that the fact that a player hasn't signed yet, even though the majority of free agents haven't yet done so, means something significant. The market for Drew will develop - this is precisely what he pays Boras for. Be patient. It's a long offseason.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Dec 9, 2013 11:10:26 GMT -5
Those were all old players who a) likely wouldn't have even held up over the course of 162, and b) wanted to play only in very specific circumstances and wouldn't have played at all if those circumstances hadn't come about (e.g., Pettitte playing only for either New York or Houston). There is no legitimate reason to think that Drew would consider sitting until midseason other than a stubborn resistance to admitting that your original point was an awful one. It doesn't even make financial sense, given that he'd be getting a prorated contract at that point. This isn't the first time you've seemed to think that the fact that a player hasn't signed yet, even though the majority of free agents haven't yet done so, means something significant. The market for Drew will develop - this is precisely what he pays Boras for. Be patient. It's a long offseason. Where do you think ends up? Just curious. I agree with you though I don't think Drew sits. I'm surprised the Cards went with Peralta over Drew.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 9, 2013 11:23:16 GMT -5
Those were all old players who a) likely wouldn't have even held up over the course of 162, and b) wanted to play only in very specific circumstances and wouldn't have played at all if those circumstances hadn't come about (e.g., Pettitte playing only for either New York or Houston). There is no legitimate reason to think that Drew would consider sitting until midseason other than a stubborn resistance to admitting that your original point was an awful one. It doesn't even make financial sense, given that he'd be getting a prorated contract at that point. This isn't the first time you've seemed to think that the fact that a player hasn't signed yet, even though the majority of free agents haven't yet done so, means something significant. The market for Drew will develop - this is precisely what he pays Boras for. Be patient. It's a long offseason. Where do you think ends up? Just curious. I agree with you though I don't think Drew sits. I'm surprised the Cards went with Peralta over Drew. That's not a surprise at all, it's their need. As we quickly figured out during the WS, they were crippled against lefthanders. Lester shut them down and Doubront had no problems with that lineup. Peralta fills a real void for them, as does Bourjos to a lesser extent. So let's recap how Drew got to this point. He'd been really badly injured and was finally mobile again. The Diamondbacks didn't offer him a QO. He was a gamble, and that $9+ million price tag from the Sox for a one year deal may have seemed an overpay to some. This is a technique that Boras has used before, to re-establish the worth of a player. It's exactly what he did with Adrian Beltre, to Beltre's real benefit. Well the Drew contract wasn't an overpay. He hit well enough to be one of the more valuable shortstops in either league with a bat. But that's not all. He firmly re-established his credentials as a very good fielder. In my opinion, a few of those games the Sox squeaked through during the playoffs could have easily gone the other way without the guy. He's a real asset. It's early December and his agent is Scott Boras, easily the best in the business when it comes to carrying the water for a player. Given all this, there's no chance whatsoever that Drew won't get a deal in my opinion. Time and need is all it takes, and there's plenty of both.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 9, 2013 13:55:33 GMT -5
Report was that the Rangers had 3/39 on the table. Rob Bradford ?@bradfo 7u Should be noted: According to source, Texas never made formal offer to Napoli Who cares? How could it ever be confirmed one way or another? Half the time I think agents are just spreading bogus rumors to drive up prices.
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Post by soxfanatic on Dec 9, 2013 18:05:09 GMT -5
Jon Heyman ?@jonheymancbs 1m Mike Napoli got a limited no-trade clause in his $32M, 2-yr #redsox deal
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 9, 2013 18:12:15 GMT -5
Rob Bradford ?@bradfo 7u Should be noted: According to source, Texas never made formal offer to Napoli Who cares? How could it ever be confirmed one way or another? Half the time I think agents are just spreading bogus rumors to drive up prices. What is Texas supposed to say, with Fielder in the fold? You're just a glorified DH, dude, so we were looking for a real first baseman? Are we really surprised that Bradford's "source" denies any such thing was in the works? It's a hall of mirrors, as you say. That's on purpose once a deal goes down. Makes it a lot easier to sooth those egos.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 9, 2013 23:58:24 GMT -5
Norm, Arizona didn't offer him a QO because he wasn't a Diamondback. Same reason the Red Sox didn't offer a QO to Cano.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 10, 2013 6:53:44 GMT -5
Norm, Arizona didn't offer him a QO because he wasn't a Diamondback. Same reason the Red Sox didn't offer a QO to Cano. "Formal offer" ? qualifying offer EDIT: I misunderstood the post. My bad. (Note that use of the quote function can help in such situations...)
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 10, 2013 8:26:14 GMT -5
Norm, Arizona didn't offer him a QO because he wasn't a Diamondback. Same reason the Red Sox didn't offer a QO to Cano. My bad there. Forgot the bus stop in Oakland, so no QO period.
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Post by elguapo on Dec 11, 2013 16:10:39 GMT -5
Indications were Hart preferred MIL if things were close money wise so we have to stop acting like this was a likely alternative. Hart signed with Seattle for, according to Rosenthal, Whatever the hell that means.
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Post by PedroKsBambino on Dec 11, 2013 17:10:50 GMT -5
He is saying that the deal is almost identical to the one signed by Napoli last year which was a base salary of 5 million w 8 million in incentives which can bring the deal up to a total of 13 million in all
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Post by elguapo on Dec 11, 2013 17:17:22 GMT -5
He is saying that the deal is almost identical to the one signed by Napoli "Compares favorably" is not the same as "almost identical", as English goes - I try not to make too many assumptions off a tweet from a sports"writer" one way or another.
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Post by PedroKsBambino on Dec 11, 2013 17:41:30 GMT -5
Hart's deal is worth $6MM guaranteed with incentives that could earn him $13MM, according to Ryan Divish of the Seattle Times (on Twitter).
However it is worded the deal is" very comparable" and/or "almost identical" to the one signed by Napoli last year
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Post by elguapo on Dec 11, 2013 19:41:20 GMT -5
Apparently the intent was, "compares favorably in compensation from the player's perspective". ("Compares favorably" means nothing - for the team, the player, based on the expected quality received?)
In any case, that's a nice deal for the M's that I would have preferred rather than $16Mx2 + Comp pick for Napoli.
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Post by PedroKsBambino on Dec 11, 2013 20:07:01 GMT -5
I don't get why people would rather have a player who is coming off injury, just got cleared for baseball activities, and who wasn't that good in the OF or 1B over a guy who just helped us win a World Series, is loved by all his teammates, had 23 HRS and 93 RBIS, proved he can pay in this market, and is signed for comparable money for only 2 years. I get the draft pick compensation and money towards the draft slot but I would rather have the more proven player than more money for the draft
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 11, 2013 20:11:24 GMT -5
I don't get why people would rather have a player who is coming off injury, just got cleared for baseball activities, and who wasn't that good in the OF or 1B over a guy who just helped us win a World Series, is loved by all his teammates, had 23 HRS and 93 RBIS, proved he can pay in this market, and is signed for comparable money for only 2 years. I get the draft pick compensation and money towards the draft slot but I would rather have the more proven player than more money for the draft The grass is always greener...
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Post by mainesox on Dec 11, 2013 20:17:12 GMT -5
Napoli has real signs pointing to a potentially serious decline, and I would say that their range of likely outcomes is relatively similar, but Hart wouldn't have cost the additional year, the extra money, or the draft pick (and also had the potential to gain us another pick next year if he has a good year). For me at least, it's not so much a problem with signing Napoli, as it is a problem with the additional cost without much (if any) potential for additional reward.
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Post by PedroKsBambino on Dec 11, 2013 20:18:37 GMT -5
Corey Hart was always looked at as an option if Napoli signed for more money and/or more years somewhere else. Doesn't make any sense to sign him over Napoli when he is a huge injury risk after missing the whole year due to major surgery on both knees and needs an incentive-laden deal due to those risks. Napoli also played a good glove calibre 1B while Hart has been awful on defense at 2 positions
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