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9/2-9/4 Red Sox @ Yankees Series Thread
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Post by juanpena on Sept 2, 2014 21:34:24 GMT -5
If we're going to blame FO for rushing people, WMB was definitely one. I don't think the problem was so much rushing him (he was 23 when he came up) but continuing to promote him up the ladder when he had no plate discipline at all. Minor-league pitchers particularly non-prospects, make a lot of mistakes, and Middlebrooks could hit a mistake a long way, but the Sox should have made him put up more quality at-bats at a level before moving him up.
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Post by redsox4242 on Sept 2, 2014 21:40:38 GMT -5
winner winner chicken dinner.
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Sept 2, 2014 21:41:16 GMT -5
Betts now has the highest BA on the team.
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Post by charliezink16 on Sept 2, 2014 21:42:25 GMT -5
If we're going to blame FO for rushing people, WMB was definitely one. I don't think the problem was so much rushing him (he was 23 when he came up) but continuing to promote him up the ladder when he had no plate discipline at all. Minor-league pitchers particularly non-prospects, make a lot of mistakes, and Middlebrooks could hit a mistake a long way, but the Sox should have made him put up more quality at-bats at a level before moving him up. While I agree, Bobby V feuding with Youkilis sped up that process.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,824
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Post by nomar on Sept 2, 2014 21:47:43 GMT -5
Had Koji not pitched in a while?
Don't see the point of using him tonight.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 2, 2014 21:49:22 GMT -5
Great win.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 2, 2014 21:52:35 GMT -5
I don't think the problem was so much rushing him (he was 23 when he came up) but continuing to promote him up the ladder when he had no plate discipline at all.Minor-league pitchers particularly non-prospects, make a lot of mistakes, and Middlebrooks could hit a mistake a long way, but the Sox should have made him put up more quality at-bats at a level before moving him up. While I agree, Bobby V feuding with Youkilis sped up that process. He had 160 AAA plate appearances before being brought up. He was rushed.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 2, 2014 21:54:21 GMT -5
Same kind of pitcher-- fastball with crazy movement and plus velo, but gets surprisingly few swings-and-misses on it and poor command. Webster has the better secondaries and Kelly has the better FB command, but they're similar pitchers. The peripherals are actually eerily similar, but Kelly has a higher upside because his overall fastball (especially the two seamer) is light years ahead. Too early to tell, let's see next season but for me at least thus far they're not at all the same kind of pitcher.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 2, 2014 21:57:29 GMT -5
Betts now has the highest BA on the team. Not true, Clay Buchholz is a perfect 1-1 for the year. Betts can't even outhit a pitcher, he was rushed.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Sept 2, 2014 21:58:50 GMT -5
Koji, he no pitch for a week. NYY dealt a serious blow to wildcard race. Sox playing meaningful baseball in September. At least this week.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Sept 2, 2014 22:13:26 GMT -5
I don't know how the system could teach not swinging at everything close to the plate any better than they did. His poor BB/K statistics show themselves throughout his MiLB career with improvement.
Middlebrooks was always a case of "what you see is what you get/got"
I'll be glad next year when some other organization has him and Boston is finally be rid of him and a "CASE CLOSED" is finally stamped on this massive failure of 3 years.
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Post by redsox4242 on Sept 2, 2014 22:16:18 GMT -5
Had Koji not pitched in a while? Don't see the point of using him tonight. I thought the same thing.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 2, 2014 22:52:57 GMT -5
Would love for Bogaerts to go off this month. Well, he has 14 TB in his last 13 PA (7/13, 3 2B, HR). You heard it here first: Xander will be in the top 3 MLB SS in wRC+ / TAv for the month of September. And, half seriously, in the top 10 for MVP in 2015. (By which I mean that everything I know about human psychology in general, and everything I've gathered about Xander's makeup specifically, leads me to believe that he's incredibly well suited to processing the past season over the winter, figuring out what he did wrong psychologically, figuring out how to better deal with failure in the future and how to snap out of hitting funks more quickly, and so on. I've never doubted his talent for an instant, and I think that starting now and even more so in 2015 you're going to see the guy who was hitting .304 / .395 / .464 in 238 PA on June 3 -- a historically great season for a 21 y/o skill infielder, in a not insubstantial sample, especially when combined with his 2013 post-season -- just pick it up from there. And then some)
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Post by larrycook on Sept 2, 2014 23:12:11 GMT -5
Could we send middlebrooks to the diamondbacks, padres or dodgers. It is so painful to watch a confused batter with no clue what he is doing. At least out west, I don't have to watch his horrible at bats.
Pa: why can't bogey use the opposite field at Fenway?
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Post by aboynamedkimandrew on Sept 3, 2014 0:21:03 GMT -5
I just watched YES' late night replay of Gardner's temper tantrum. Their announcers always treat the close up of the plate as definitive. However, one can only accurately tell if a ball is outside if the camera is situated over the outside edge. Instead, it is clearly slightly to the first base side of the plate (the point of the plate is pointed to the left of the camera). Simple geometry will tell you that perspective will actually make a pitch over the far edge of the plate appear to cross in front of dirt or the batters box line - giving the illusion that it was outside. That pitch may well have been outside (and I think it was), but it was, at a worst, closer than it appeared. At best, it could have caught the plate. You can't tell with certainty from that angle. Then again, I doubt anyone in the Yankees booth actually passed high school geometry.
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Post by Gwell55 on Sept 3, 2014 0:56:25 GMT -5
I just watched YES' late night replay of Gardner's temper tantrum. Their announcers always treat the close up of the plate as definitive. However, one can only accurately tell if a ball is outside if the camera is situated over the outside edge. Instead, it is clearly slightly to the first base side of the plate (the point of the plate is pointed to the left of the camera). Simple geometry will tell you that perspective will actually make a pitch over the far edge of the plate appear to cross in front of dirt or the batters box line - giving the illusion that it was outside. That pitch may well have been outside (and I think it was), but it was, at a worst, closer than it appeared. At best, it could have caught the plate. You can't tell with certainty from that angle. Then again, I doubt anyone in the Yankees booth actually passed high school geometry. Actually all those pitches to Ortiz called strikes that were outside the plate can now be used as a reference. What is good for the goose ya know. If it is 6 inches off the plate it can be called a K anytime to Ortiz and other hitters so what are the NY whiners screaming about anyway???
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Post by sarasoxer on Sept 3, 2014 6:00:50 GMT -5
Middlebrooks just looks flat out confused, 4 strikeouts on the night. That was a breaking ball right down the middle he could of crushed. Four called third strikes.....Is that a record? And to your point, the third strikes were seemingly very hittable pitches....right, fat in the middle of the zone.. So is the confusion that he was guessing pitch and location? Is it that he can't see well enough to judge pitch, spin and location? Is it an absolute crisis of confidence? It is hard to imagine a guy can hit .287 in half a season with 15 hrs., can hit three and almost 4 homeruns in one game, can hit, even as he declined last year 17 hrs. and this year drop further where he has 2 hrs. on the season. I don't know if he will have trade value...a throw-in maybe. I would rather give him a full year next season at AAA and see if he can resurrect.
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Post by soxfanatic on Sept 3, 2014 6:15:24 GMT -5
Middlebrooks is cleary a guess hitter. He hasn't shown the ability to pick up spin on the ball. Thus, I have little faith in him being a decent hitter.
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steveofbradenton
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Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
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Post by steveofbradenton on Sept 3, 2014 6:24:08 GMT -5
Middlebrooks just looks flat out confused, 4 strikeouts on the night. That was a breaking ball right down the middle he could of crushed. Four called third strikes.....Is that a record? And to your point, the third strikes were seemingly very hittable pitches....right, fat in the middle of the zone.. So is the confusion that he was guessing pitch and location? Is it that he can't see well enough to judge pitch, spin and location? Is it an absolute crisis of confidence? It is hard to imagine a guy can hit .287 in half a season with 15 hrs., can hit three and almost 4 homeruns in one game, can hit, even as he declined last year 17 hrs. and this year drop further where he has 2 hrs. on the season. I don't know if he will have trade value...a throw-in maybe. I would rather give him a full year next season at AAA and see if he can resurrect. That was exactly what was most upsetting to me about his at bats. HOW can you go up to the plate time after time and TAKE strike 3? I'm sure it wasn't a case of effort, but last night it sure looked like it. He has NO plan at all. He not only has no 2 strike plan, he has no idea at all at this moment. Sadly there is little value on the market for Will. I was hoping he would have a solid 4 to 6 weeks and then we would trade him. Now? He is a throw-in.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 3, 2014 6:24:35 GMT -5
Count me unimpressed by Kelly. He's Webster with slightly more command but worse stuff. I dunno ... that seems sorta like saying, "He's Middlebrooks with better contact ability but worse power."
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Post by sibbysisti on Sept 3, 2014 6:33:06 GMT -5
I'm all in favor of "rushing" Garin Cecchini to Boston, swapping places with Middlebrooks. Another 160 ABs in Pawtucket for Dell's fiancé wouldn't hurt. Make that 260.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Sept 3, 2014 8:19:33 GMT -5
Correct me if im wrong but isnt kelly only supposed to be a fifth starter for us? If so, he is doing just fine.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 3, 2014 8:56:36 GMT -5
Correct me if im wrong but isnt kelly only supposed to be a fifth starter for us? If so, he is doing just fine. I'm curious why he's "supposed" to be a fifth starter ? Something I didn't know, pure paper moves for the majors aren't acceptable: Ranaudo was sent down to Single-A Greenville over the weekend — a temporary move made in order so that the right-hander could be called up as soon as possible. Ranaudo still had to actually report to Greenville, which he did Monday in order to play some catch as the Drive finished off their season.Tim Britton, ProJo The reverse isn't the case, when teams have an injury unknown, it's not at all uncommon for a member of the AAA taxi squad to travel with the team.
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Post by jmei on Sept 3, 2014 9:41:00 GMT -5
If we're going to blame FO for rushing people, WMB was definitely one. As mentioned above, it's more just that Middlebrooks just isn't a very good player. The total lack of pitch recognition really kills you in the major leagues when just about every pitcher can throw an offspeed pitch for a strike and you can't just sit fastball all the time. It's no guarantee that he would have added pitch recognition had he been given more time in the minors-- indeed, that's the kind of physical skill (related to visual acuity and hand-eye coordination) that is difficult to improve even with lots of practice. Count me unimpressed by Kelly. He's Webster with slightly more command but worse stuff. I dunno ... that seems sorta like saying, "He's Middlebrooks with better contact ability but worse power." Fair enough, but I think it's a useful comparison. Like saying Cespedes is like Middlebrooks with much better contact ability. It helps you understand the type of player he is. In Kelly's case, he has below-average strikeout rates, bad walk rates, but huge groundball rates. He's a fine back end of the rotation type, but you're in trouble if he's the second or third best pitcher in your rotation.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 3, 2014 9:54:10 GMT -5
Kelly really seemed to be losing his release point from the stretch last night. Looking at his stats on the season I'm wondering if that's something of a trend. His walk rate with runners on base is 14.1%, and with the bases empty it's 7.9%. Compounding matters, he's striking out 18.9% with the bases empty, and 13.3% (yuck) with men on. I don't think it's a mental thing either. I believe he worked from the stretch when he walked Cervelli with the bases loaded, and then switched to the windup and made better pitches when he got the soft liner from Ellsbury, grounder from Jeter and (sorta BS) strikeout of Gardner.
So I suppose the questions are whether that discrepancy is noise or an actual problem. And, if it's actually a problem, if it's correctable.
In general, this is the type of player I'm happy to see the Sox take a chance on - a flawed player with a major issue that may be fixable and with enough upside to make the troule worth it. The downside here is a complete loss, though - if he can't pitch from the stretch then it's hard to foresee success as a reliever.
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