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9/2-9/4 Red Sox @ Yankees Series Thread
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 4, 2014 10:00:48 GMT -5
Did I really just get compared to Saul Alinsky? I'm flattered, but a tad bewildered. ' Anyhow, back on topic for those who would like to actually discuss it rather than just call those they disagree with mid-20th century community organizers... In 1999 Nomar made contact with the first pitch 119 times and hit .420. In 2000, he made contact 125 times and hit .432! That is pretty awesome, and exactly the sort of aggressiveness you want - if they swing early in the count, they don't make an out. In 2001, he missed most of the season with the wrist injury. Forward to 2002. Nomar made contact with 164 first pitches, and hit .323. In 2003, he also made contact 164 times, hitting .341. Those numbers don't seem awful at first, but when you look - in both of those seasons he made over 100 outs having only seen one pitch. So yes - of course the injuries played a role in his decline! I certainly wouldn't argue otherwise. But any argument that hyper-aggressiveness was the key to Nomar's success just falls flat. He was swinging at the first pitch 40% more often during his decline phase than at his peak. He excelled in 1998-2000 by picking and choosing those first pitches to swing at, and punishing them. His approach in those times was the definition of selective aggressiveness. You're making me a dangerous man James. Stop that.
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danr
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Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Sept 4, 2014 10:51:50 GMT -5
Did I really just get compared to Saul Alinsky? I'm flattered, but a tad bewildered. ' Anyhow, back on topic for those who would like to actually discuss it rather than just call those they disagree with mid-20th century community organizers... In 1999 Nomar made contact with the first pitch 119 times and hit .420. In 2000, he made contact 125 times and hit .432! That is pretty awesome, and exactly the sort of aggressiveness you want - if they swing early in the count, they don't make an out. In 2001, he missed most of the season with the wrist injury. Forward to 2002. Nomar made contact with 164 first pitches, and hit .323. In 2003, he also made contact 164 times, hitting .341. Those numbers don't seem awful at first, but when you look - in both of those seasons he made over 100 outs having only seen one pitch. So yes - of course the injuries played a role in his decline! I certainly wouldn't argue otherwise. But any argument that hyper-aggressiveness was the key to Nomar's success just falls flat. He was swinging at the first pitch 40% more often during his decline phase than at his peak. He excelled in 1998-2000 by picking and choosing those first pitches to swing at, and punishing them. His approach in those times was the definition of selective aggressiveness. That was sort of a strange comparison. I have and I've read Alinsky's books and they are quite entertaining, but not works of literature. Still, if I were to be a community organizer, I certainly would consult them. But to return to the topic, I think we are talking about apples and oranges to some extent. You describe what Nomar actually did. There's no dispute about that. I tried to propose why he did it. Something clearly changed after that injury. I was paying a fair amount of attention to the Sox in those days and Nomar looked like a different hitter when he came back. I think many noticed that. And, perhaps in an effort to compensate for whatever was continuing to bother him, he did what you showed. It is a sad story, considering what he might have done.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,931
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 4, 2014 10:57:58 GMT -5
Actually, no, I don't think that in the least. I think there's reason to believe that it may be a skill, and that therefore he represents a very interesting gamble. (If it's true, the higher walk rate with runners on is causally related to the lower BABIP: it's successful nibbling, whereas with the bases empty, he's been too aggressive at challenging hitters. Perhaps.) I believe I said that explicitly (which I admit I don't always do). You're right, I misspoke. I went back to read it and realized I overstated your position and was meaning to come back and edit my post but other things came up. No problem! I've been guilty of infinitely worse (with the same hindsight regret and failure to edit, even.) Obviously, it's questions like these that make the game so interesting ... I don't know if it's good or bad that they accumulate faster than we can investigate them thoroughly. And I'll plead guilty to not watching the games carefully enough, of late, to add a scouting opinion. (Which is to say I watch most nights, but for the first time in years I'm not scoring pitch-by-pitch.) Time to remind myself to ask Dan Brooks to add filters by base/out situation to his pitch/fx player cards (plus a proper linear weights pitch result). That data would be tremendously informative for this (and many other) questions.
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Post by ray88h66 on Sept 4, 2014 18:39:30 GMT -5
Complete fail. Manager has Xander bunting in front of the pitcher ,(WMB) , Xander doesn't have a clue how to bunt after the failed call for the bunt. The pitcher k's.
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Post by station13 on Sept 4, 2014 18:41:24 GMT -5
Middlebrooks welcome has to be worn by now. He is absolutely awful.
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Post by GyIantosca on Sept 4, 2014 18:49:46 GMT -5
That was a bomb
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Post by Guidas on Sept 4, 2014 18:51:16 GMT -5
This team is nothing without Big Papi.
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Post by terriblehondo on Sept 4, 2014 18:57:14 GMT -5
Craig looks as lost as Middlebrooks.
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Post by station13 on Sept 4, 2014 19:08:39 GMT -5
Workman doesn't have a lot as a starter. Mediocre fastball, and locations are usually awful.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Sept 4, 2014 19:36:27 GMT -5
Workman doesn't have a lot as a starter. Mediocre fastball, and locations are usually awful. He's also approaching the max number of innings thrown by him in any season. One way to assure he's out of the SP shuffle next year is to just keep running him out there, tired or not.. Not saying it's what is going on, but look at what he's throwing.. His FB is not as crisp as we saw earlier. He's not even starting games at 92-4 now and that curve doesn't look nearly as sharp. Not say (any longer that is) he couldn't be more valuable as the old Franklin Morales, but if their long term plans are as the swing guy, having him out there with a 89-90 FB in the 2nd inning just isn't right, he's tired and nobody is going to admit it, outside of Jim Palmer at least.
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Post by station13 on Sept 4, 2014 19:55:04 GMT -5
Workman doesn't have a lot as a starter. Mediocre fastball, and locations are usually awful. He's also approaching the max number of innings thrown by him in any season. One way to assure he's out of the SP shuffle next year is to just keep running him out there, tired or not.. Not saying it's what is going on, but look at what he's throwing.. His FB is not as crisp as we saw earlier. He's not even starting games at 92-4 now and that curve doesn't look nearly as sharp. Not say (any longer that is) he couldn't be more valuable as the old Franklin Morales, but if their long term plans are as the swing guy, having him out there with a 89-90 FB in the 2nd inning just isn't right, he's tired and nobody is going to admit it, outside of Jim Palmer at least. he's been pretty bad all year in the majors. I don't think he is a starter. He was low 90s earlier this year, so that's probably where he is starting.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 4, 2014 20:15:55 GMT -5
Workman doesn't have a lot as a starter. Mediocre fastball, and locations are usually awful. He's also approaching the max number of innings thrown by him in any season. One way to assure he's out of the SP shuffle next year is to just keep running him out there, tired or not.. Not saying it's what is going on, but look at what he's throwing.. His FB is not as crisp as we saw earlier. He's not even starting games at 92-4 now and that curve doesn't look nearly as sharp. Not say (any longer that is) he couldn't be more valuable as the old Franklin Morales, but if their long term plans are as the swing guy, having him out there with a 89-90 FB in the 2nd inning just isn't right, he's tired and nobody is going to admit it, outside of Jim Palmer at least. Workman is 26 and is may hit 140 innings tonight. If that workload has him tired then he isn't a starter.
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Post by marrcus on Sept 4, 2014 20:25:08 GMT -5
Deliver Christian here and really make Girardi's night: do it Mookie.
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Post by redsox4242 on Sept 4, 2014 20:38:53 GMT -5
Is that Bradley jr out their? what a cannon by Betts!!!!! double play! MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKIEEEEEEEEEE!!!
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 4, 2014 20:43:48 GMT -5
Is that Bradley jr out their? what a cannon by Betts!!!!! double play! MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKIEEEEEEEEEE!!! Seriously? That was a nice throw, but it was much more of a lob than a cannon. He made a play that a major league center fielder needs to make.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Sept 4, 2014 21:03:12 GMT -5
ARE THEY getting Craig out of the game for an upgrade on DEE after this 9th inning plate appearance? HBP, on base, pinch run?
edit: looks like Nava going to RF, not Holt.
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Post by marrcus on Sept 4, 2014 21:16:29 GMT -5
Nice hold by Taz. Koji needs to be on.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 4, 2014 21:19:27 GMT -5
Some of those rooting for losses to help next year's draft position may get what they want tonight. I'm not loving Koji here.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 4, 2014 21:20:22 GMT -5
As I was sayin'...
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Post by redsox4242 on Sept 4, 2014 21:20:47 GMT -5
Should of traded Koji when his value was high, Cherington blew that one.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 4, 2014 21:22:27 GMT -5
Should of traded Koji when his value was high, Cherington blew that one. Agree. I didn't understand why they weren't looking to move him at the deadline. If they wanted him back next year, they could have just pursued him as a FA. Let's face it, he's a gas can right now.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Sept 4, 2014 21:24:39 GMT -5
Should of traded Koji when his value was high, Cherington blew that one. They want him next year. Not every player considers going back to a team that traded him. He is just old, overworked, and tired. Remember when we signed him he was barely gonna be used on back-to-back days? Shut him down for the year and let him figure it out next April.
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Post by widewordofsport on Sept 4, 2014 21:25:56 GMT -5
Well then. So glad I flipped back to the game.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 4, 2014 21:27:23 GMT -5
A GAS CAN. It shows how bad Koji is right now that I'm not the least bit surprised by that.
Kay is going crazy on YES, saying it's a huge win, blah, blah, blah. Look at some of the playoff odds projections. Their chances of making the playoffs are in the 3 to 6 percent range. This may raise it to 7 percent or something. I guess that qualifies as a big win to Kay.
I'm just in a real bad mood right now.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Sept 4, 2014 21:28:44 GMT -5
TOR wins and SEA wins. So the day is not a total loss.
I kept hearing about a 6-4 road trip. What happened, chicken counters?
edit: if the Tigers win their tie game, Yankees 3.7% playoff odds may decrease today by a small smidgeon.
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