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Post by 11mikem on Jul 2, 2018 22:19:06 GMT -5
No vulgar suggestions, please (!)
Serious idea: Put him in the pen (a la Eckersley). He's shown he is very effective there. He might even be an all star as a reliever. The best thing is, he won't know when he'll pitch, so his head can't get in the way (i.e., he can't dwell on knowing he's pitching against the Yankees in 3 days). Putting him in the pen eliminates the obvious need for the Sox to make a (bad) trade for a reliever in the next few weeks. Yes, the starting depth is strained right now, but his replacement probably won't pitch worse. Why not try it? He's proved (over and over) he'll be useless in the playoffs, so why not use him in a role he seems to be suited for and might even excel?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 2, 2018 22:40:19 GMT -5
He's going to start the rest of the season. If anything, he'll be put in the bullpen come playoff time.
It's really not that hard of a decision.
Hopefully Wright comes back strong after his PRP injection today. He would be the team's second best starter in the playoffs if he did.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 2, 2018 23:07:04 GMT -5
No vulgar suggestions, please (!) Serious idea: Put him in the pen (a la Eckersley). He's shown he is very effective there. He might even be an all star as a reliever. The best thing is, he won't know when he'll pitch, so his head can't get in the way (i.e., he can't dwell on knowing he's pitching against the Yankees in 3 days). Putting him in the pen eliminates the obvious need for the Sox to make a (bad) trade for a reliever in the next few weeks. Yes, the starting depth is strained right now, but his replacement probably won't pitch worse. Why not try it? He's proved (over and over) he'll be useless in the playoffs, so why not use him in a role he seems to be suited for and might even excel? Why in the world would you move one of your best starters to the bullpen? When David Price doesn't pitch against the Yankees his ERA is around 3.3. What this means is that he's a lousy starter against the Yankees. It doesn't mean he's a lousy starter overall or that he deserves to be dumped from the rotation. That makes no sense. The rotation doesn't have the depth to take that kind of hit. I think if Johnson gets a bunch of starts, he'll be exposed sooner than later. Velaquez is kind of the same thing. Beeks is no guarantee to be better. Pomeranz got knocked around in AAA today. If you want to debate whether Price starting against the Yankees in a post-season series makes sense and he continues to struggle against NY and the Sox get a viable starting option to go with Sale, Porcello, and E-Rod such as Wright coming back healthy, then that's a different conversation. Price could be a weapon out of the bullpen in this scenario and we'd be spared the buildup of the media reminding everybody that Price has never won a post-season start, and we'd be spared watching David Price saying something sarcastic and dismissive, and then we'd be spared of watching the pressure ratchet up and Price trying too hard and falling on his face again But in the regular season to demote a guy to the bullpen who has pitched well most of the season with the exception of two brutal starts against NYY is a serious case of overreacting.
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Post by telson13 on Jul 3, 2018 2:05:26 GMT -5
Yeah, at $31M a year you start him until his arm flies off and kills a bird Randy Johnson-style, or his ERA and peripherals are firmly entrenched in the high 5s. One cruddy (truly awful, though it was) Yankees start doesn’t change that he’s still likely to be far more valuable as a starter than reliever.
What an albatross that contract is becoming. I hang my head in shame for ever supporting it.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 3, 2018 4:23:39 GMT -5
Yeah, at $31M a year you start him until his arm flies off and kills a bird Randy Johnson-style, or his ERA and peripherals are firmly entrenched in the high 5s. One cruddy (truly awful, though it was) Yankees start doesn’t change that he’s still likely to be far more valuable as a starter than reliever. What an albatross that contract is becoming. I hang my head in shame for ever supporting it. Not a complete albatross. He's just overpriced by like 10-13 million a year AAV wise. Price is basically Rick Porcello now with a lot more drama inbetween.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 3, 2018 7:58:21 GMT -5
I say trade him to NYY straight up for Sonny Gray.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 3, 2018 8:31:57 GMT -5
We're not going to play the Yankees in the playoffs because Nellie and the Mariners are going to beat them in the one game playoff : )
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 3, 2018 8:41:46 GMT -5
Yeah, at $31M a year you start him until his arm flies off and kills a bird Randy Johnson-style, or his ERA and peripherals are firmly entrenched in the high 5s. One cruddy (truly awful, though it was) Yankees start doesn’t change that he’s still likely to be far more valuable as a starter than reliever. What an albatross that contract is becoming. I hang my head in shame for ever supporting it. Don't be too hard on yourself. I'm in the same boat. I was happy when the Sox signed him. They couldn't keep going with "He's the ace" kind of stuff they were doing in 2015. Nobody really knew that Porcello would emerge to have a career year in 2016 and even so, he's a good pitcher, but not really an ace. Without beating a dead horse too much it goes back to the decision of not trying to bring Jon Lester back in the winter of 2014-2015. Price, if you look at the stats, was a better pitcher than Lester during the regular season. That said, I don't trust David Price if he has to make an important start. I just don't. I knew (or at least felt) that Jon Lester would pitch well when the game really mattered. I also think that 2012 was a big hiccup for an unhappy Jon Lester and that he found something in the 2nd half of 2013 that meant he'd be a good pitcher going forward. But, ok, Lester is gone, they don't have an ace, they had a lot of kids - many you don't want to deal away. It's not hard to imagine Moncada being a star or Kopech being the next Syndergaard (if you squint a little), so Price made a lot of sense. But when it comes to him, something just feels off about him. I enjoy listening to post-game interviews, etc. I'm interested in what the players say or their mannerisms, even if it really doesn't mean much and a lot of it is clichés, but something about Price is so unenjoyable for me to listen to. As soon as WEEI or NBC Sports Boston start talking about him, I kind of tune out. The David Price experience is kind of joyless. I think David Ortiz had a point some years back when he questioned Price's mentality. Price calling Verducci and Hayhurst "nerds" after he pitched like crap is not a good look. But the man can pitch, so it made logical sense. And he's still a good pitcher. He's just not the ace pitcher we hoped he'd be. Chris Sale IS that guy. He's what Price isn't upstairs and on the mound. Or at least that's my uneducated opinion. So we'll hope Price pitches well the rest of the season, doesn't have to deal with the Yankees too often, and see what the options are in the post-season if they do run into the Yankees (like do the Sox have 4 better starting options than a guy who gets continuously mauled by the Yankees?). If they face Seattle in a 1 game playoff, or Houston, or hopefully an NL team, I'm fine with Price starting (I think) and hoping that the law of averages take over at some point, but if he gets bombed as a starter early on in the playoffs it could snowball as the pressure from the fans and media mount.
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Post by telson13 on Jul 3, 2018 11:35:20 GMT -5
Yeah, at $31M a year you start him until his arm flies off and kills a bird Randy Johnson-style, or his ERA and peripherals are firmly entrenched in the high 5s. One cruddy (truly awful, though it was) Yankees start doesn’t change that he’s still likely to be far more valuable as a starter than reliever. What an albatross that contract is becoming. I hang my head in shame for ever supporting it. Don't be too hard on yourself. I'm in the same boat. I was happy when the Sox signed him. They couldn't keep going with "He's the ace" kind of stuff they were doing in 2015. Nobody really knew that Porcello would emerge to have a career year in 2016 and even so, he's a good pitcher, but not really an ace. Without beating a dead horse too much it goes back to the decision of not trying to bring Jon Lester back in the winter of 2014-2015. Price, if you look at the stats, was a better pitcher than Lester during the regular season. That said, I don't trust David Price if he has to make an important start. I just don't. I knew (or at least felt) that Jon Lester would pitch well when the game really mattered. I also think that 2012 was a big hiccup for an unhappy Jon Lester and that he found something in the 2nd half of 2013 that meant he'd be a good pitcher going forward. But, ok, Lester is gone, they don't have an ace, they had a lot of kids - many you don't want to deal away. It's not hard to imagine Moncada being a star or Kopech being the next Syndergaard (if you squint a little), so Price made a lot of sense. But when it comes to him, something just feels off about him. I enjoy listening to post-game interviews, etc. I'm interested in what the players say or their mannerisms, even if it really doesn't mean much and a lot of it is clichés, but something about Price is so unenjoyable for me to listen to. As soon as WEEI or NBC Sports Boston start talking about him, I kind of tune out. The David Price experience is kind of joyless. I think David Ortiz had a point some years back when he questioned Price's mentality. Price calling Verducci and Hayhurst "nerds" after he pitched like crap is not a good look. But the man can pitch, so it made logical sense. And he's still a good pitcher. He's just not the ace pitcher we hoped he'd be. Chris Sale IS that guy. He's what Price isn't upstairs and on the mound. Or at least that's my uneducated opinion. So we'll hope Price pitches well the rest of the season, doesn't have to deal with the Yankees too often, and see what the options are in the post-season if they do run into the Yankees (like do the Sox have 4 better starting options than a guy who gets continuously mauled by the Yankees?). If they face Seattle in a 1 game playoff, or Houston, or hopefully an NL team, I'm fine with Price starting (I think) and hoping that the law of averages take over at some point, but if he gets bombed as a starter early on in the playoffs it could snowball as the pressure from the fans and media mount. And he opts out under the pressure?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 3, 2018 11:47:00 GMT -5
I'm seriously tempted to just close this thread. Price had one bad game. In his previous nine, he was 56.1-44-17-17-17-57 with a 2.72 ERA. Even after last night, he's at worst one of the top 50 or 60 starting pitchers in baseball (34th in xFIP, 54th in fWAR, 56th in bWAR) this season.
Meanwhile, this team is starting Brian Johnson tonight.
The answer to question in the thread title is "start him every fifth game," and there really is no alternative answer that makes sense.
On one hand, we want to encourage posters to feel free to post and start new threads and the like, so for now we'll leave this and I'll just hope it dies on the vine. But on the other, we're not going to have threads on the forum about what needs to be done with the club's second- or third-best starter every time he has a bad game against one of the top offenses in baseball.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 3, 2018 12:48:39 GMT -5
. And he opts out under the pressure? Logic says no, that he won't approach that kind of money in free agency. He says he loves playing with his teammates, so his problems don't seem internal. He gives off the vibe that he doesn't enjoy Boston and it's obvious he doesn't like dealing with the media. He doesn't seem happy, but who knows? On one hand I'd be thrilled to see him walk away and the $31 million/year open up for the Sox to spend elsewhere. Price has declined from where he was when the Sox signed him. He's not the ace he was in TB, Toronto, or Detroit - and if he declines further from being a good pitcher - well that money looks even bigger, and there's always the increased concern of injury with him. On the other hand, I don't know that there's a free agent starter you're going to want to throw money at and there is no real replacement in the minors and the Sox don't have what it takes in the minors to make the next Chris Sale deal, if there's one like that out there, so replacing what Price is now won't be as easy as it would seem. You're not going to plug Jalen Beeks or Brian Johnson into the rotation and feel like you've replaced Price. If forced to guess, I'd say Price sticks around.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jul 3, 2018 13:04:37 GMT -5
Yeah, at $31M a year you start him until his arm flies off and kills a bird Randy Johnson-style, or his ERA and peripherals are firmly entrenched in the high 5s. One cruddy (truly awful, though it was) Yankees start doesn’t change that he’s still likely to be far more valuable as a starter than reliever. What an albatross that contract is becoming. I hang my head in shame for ever supporting it. I think most of us supported it so no harm there. He seemed perfect coming in. Proves how hard it is to play in Boston.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jul 3, 2018 13:08:07 GMT -5
I'm seriously tempted to just close this thread. Price had one bad game. In his previous nine, he was 56.1-44-17-17-17-57 with a 2.72 ERA. Even after last night, he's at worst one of the top 50 or 60 starting pitchers in baseball (34th in xFIP, 54th in fWAR, 56th in bWAR) this season. Meanwhile, this team is starting Brian Johnson tonight. The answer to question in the thread title is "start him every fifth game," and there really is no alternative answer that makes sense. On one hand, we want to encourage posters to feel free to post and start new threads and the like, so for now we'll leave this and I'll just hope it dies on the vine. But on the other, we're not going to have threads on the forum about what needs to be done with the club's second- or third-best starter every time he has a bad game against one of the top offenses in baseball. hahahaha ......Well said boss!! edit: I could use some help understanding all those numbers though. After 40+ years I am still a neophyte.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 3, 2018 13:13:38 GMT -5
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 3, 2018 13:15:27 GMT -5
When a pitcher goes from decent to a batting practice pitcher almost immediately, that's probably the most likely explanation. I wonder if it's tipping or sign stealing though, because the latter is a lot easier to fix.
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Post by 11mikem on Jul 3, 2018 17:41:38 GMT -5
"One bad game..." Hardly. He's great against mediocre teams but since he came to Boston, he's been a guaranteed loss in any playoff game he starts (anyone seriously disagree?). Fine, leave him in the rotation until the playoffs, but if anyone seriously thinks he's going to magically become a money starting pitcher in the playoffs for this team, you're delusional. Come playoffs, put him in the bullpen. At least he has success there in pressure games. What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
(Funny, but the shutdown responses I've received in this thread are exactly the same as the ones I received when I had the gall to suggest the Sox would be better off keeping Adrian Beltre over Kevin Youkilis. Boy, was THAT suggestion slammed! Anyone want a do-over?)
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Post by jmei on Jul 3, 2018 21:42:42 GMT -5
"One bad game..." Hardly. He's great against mediocre teams but since he came to Boston, he's been a guaranteed loss in any playoff game he starts (anyone seriously disagree?). Fine, leave him in the rotation until the playoffs, but if anyone seriously thinks he's going to magically become a money starting pitcher in the playoffs for this team, you're delusional. Come playoffs, put him in the bullpen. At least he has success there in pressure games. What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. (Funny, but the shutdown responses I've received in this thread are exactly the same as the ones I received when I had the gall to suggest the Sox would be better off keeping Adrian Beltre over Kevin Youkilis. Boy, was THAT suggestion slammed! Anyone want a do-over?) David Price has one start in the postseason with Boston.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 3, 2018 22:24:39 GMT -5
"One bad game..." Hardly. He's great against mediocre teams but since he came to Boston, he's been a guaranteed loss in any playoff game he starts (anyone seriously disagree?). Fine, leave him in the rotation until the playoffs, but if anyone seriously thinks he's going to magically become a money starting pitcher in the playoffs for this team, you're delusional. Come playoffs, put him in the bullpen. At least he has success there in pressure games. What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. (Funny, but the shutdown responses I've received in this thread are exactly the same as the ones I received when I had the gall to suggest the Sox would be better off keeping Adrian Beltre over Kevin Youkilis. Boy, was THAT suggestion slammed! Anyone want a do-over?) You're getting shutdown responses because you posted that the Sox should pull Price from the rotation now, which makes no sense whatsoever. That's why you're getting slammed. Prior to his crappy outing against the Yankees his ERA was 3.66. Sorry but I don't pull one of my best pitchers out of the rotation, particularly when there are not better options, because he had a horrible game. I don't think there's one person here other than you who thinks that makes any sense at all. Like I said, whether you'd let Price start against the Yankees in the post-season if he continues to struggle mightily against them the remainder of the season is a different conversation. And like jmei said, he has had all of 1 post-season starts with the Sox, count 'em, 1. If the Sox match up against Cleveland or Houston or a NL team I take my chances with Price unless Sale, Porcello, E-Rod, and Wright are all pitching better than him, and the odds of that aren't that great.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 3, 2018 23:14:35 GMT -5
I'm putting Price in the bullpen in the postseason regardless of what happens in the regular season and who they face in the postseason.
I've seen bullpen ace David Price in the playoffs last year and there was a lot to love there.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jul 4, 2018 3:19:00 GMT -5
What is my profile name? Voiceofreason.. Yup some times Sox fans need to be talked off the ledge.
What is this teams record again? Oh yeah the best in baseball halfway thru the season. So much to be excited about and yet.... Enjoy your summer folks!!
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Post by jmei on Jul 4, 2018 7:38:16 GMT -5
I'm putting Price in the bullpen in the postseason regardless of what happens in the regular season and who they face in the postseason. I've seen bullpen ace David Price in the playoffs last year and there was a lot to love there. If the argument is that Price can’t handle the pressure of the playoffs or playing the Yankees, why would he pitch better in a high-leverage bullpen role than as a starter? It’s almost as if there’s no internal logical consistency here and it’s just overreaction based on small sample sizes.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 4, 2018 7:44:01 GMT -5
I'm putting Price in the bullpen in the postseason regardless of what happens in the regular season and who they face in the postseason. I've seen bullpen ace David Price in the playoffs last year and there was a lot to love there. If the argument is that Price can’t handle the pressure of the playoffs or playing the Yankees, why would he pitch better in a high-leverage bullpen role than as a starter? It’s almost as if there’s no internal logical consistency here and it’s just overreaction based on small sample sizes. jmei, there is a slight difference. When he starts it becomes a media thing where the press conferences occur, the pressure ratchets up, and it becomes a thing. When he's in the bullpen it doesn't become a media circus. That said, I do believe he will eventually win as a starter in the playoffs. I think it'll be one of those games the offense puts up double digits and he relaxes and pitches well. Not convinced that comes against NY, but I could see him doing that against Houston.
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Post by jmei on Jul 4, 2018 7:46:34 GMT -5
Moving David Price out of the rotation and into the bullpen won’t result in a media circus?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 4, 2018 7:53:47 GMT -5
Moving David Price out of the rotation and into the bullpen won’t result in a media circus? It would, but it wouldn't be a case where he has this negative history he's trying to live down. When confronted by the media with his history he gets combative and I think he starts to press. Or at least the results have been ugly. Again, if he continues to get his lunch eaten by the Yankees and if you have 4 better options, you'd have to consider it because it would be a big enough sample size (3 years worth of starts). Otherwise I differ from some here. I wouldn't have any issues starting him against Houston or a World Series team. Unless the Sox have 4 better options, which is unlikely. And as far as NY goes, if Price pitches well (like he had prior to his NY start) and he handles the Yankees as the season goes on, then yes, I'd start him. For David Price to become a bullpen guy as some suggest would require Porcello to pitch like he's been doing, E-Rod to become a TOR starter as his potential suggests - but he'd have to be consistent, and it would take Wright to pitch as dominantly as he was doing prior to his Seattle start - you'd have to be able to count on his health. That's a lot to have to go right to even want to put Price in the bullpen for the entire post-season. I don't really see it.
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Post by p23w on Jul 4, 2018 8:23:45 GMT -5
Price is what he is. As of today he is a grossly overpaid #3 starter. The contract limits the clubs flexibility. Not Price's fault. Depending on the match up Price could be the fourth, not third starter in several cases. The excuses to explain his bad outings are about as simplistic as the gushing praise for his good performances. It is ALL about match ups. Catching teams when they have hot hitters and when their bats are struggling. Good hitting teams that hit lefties will get good swings off Price. Period. He is ours, he will start and we will live with the results.
And to the Poster who mentioned Lester.... I would have vastly preferred Lester on the roster to Price. Sale is what most people thought Price was going to perform like.
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