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Let's make a deal! Building a Yamamoto contract
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 23, 2023 15:14:20 GMT -5
So does that mean they didn't make a competitive offer? Why can reporters not be clear about this? Or am I missing something?
I think it just means she's become another "parrot the narrative" writer pandering to a grumpy fanbase when the off-season isn't even half over. The current reporting (per MLBTR) is that MFY offered what was essentially a better deal -- higher AAV, not backloaded, earlier opt-outs -- and NYM offered essentially the same terms as LAD, so it's clear that YY's underlying preference was LAD. How much higher would BOS have needed to go? I for one am glad that "full-throttle" doesn't mean "here's a blank piece of paper with all of our signatures on it, just print your contract terms on that, sign it, and send it to the league." I also dispute the assertion that YY would have "[solidified] their rotation for years to come." If she's assuming he's the next Pedro or Maddux, she should come out and say it. Otherwise, how many guys his size have ever done that? [N.B. YY is smaller than either of them, too.]
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Post by orion09 on Dec 23, 2023 15:19:16 GMT -5
Is it possible our front office didn’t want to go past a certain dollar figure because they want to gear up for a future run at Roki Sasaki? Sasaki is the guy I really want. I hope he’s posted as a full free agent (because it gives us a better shot at him) and I hope we spend whatever it takes to land him. He’ll line up well with our window, too.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 23, 2023 17:00:42 GMT -5
Is it possible our front office didn’t want to go past a certain dollar figure because they want to gear up for a future run at Roki Sasaki? Sasaki is the guy I really want. I hope he’s posted as a full free agent (because it gives us a better shot at him) and I hope we spend whatever it takes to land him. He’ll line up well with our window, too. Well, he checks the first box, at 6'2", 187# -- still only 22, so could fill in another 10-15# of girth. Still, you could cut and paste your post into a MFY, NYM, SFG, LAA, TOR, or virtually any team's fan chat board. The competition is not going to be any less fierce. Ultimately though, pinning your hopes to the Sox landing the shiniest free agent object isn't any less Sysiphean than it's ever been. Absent a few exceptions, we always lost out to MFY in the past (just ask Theo's mythical hotel room chair or Mark Teixeira's wife) and now you can add LAD and NYM to the clubs who have cut the line in front of us. The money is there but the prestige is ebbing. The answer, of course, is to build a winner from your farm so that you can at least guarantee consistent playoff runs. Until then, we may need to overpay a Montgomery, Giolito, Hader, Stephenson, etc., to boost what the farm can give us in the short term. With any luck, by the time Sasaki is ready to post, we'll have had a couple grabs at the brass ring and become a much more obvious finalist for him and others like him.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Dec 23, 2023 17:09:46 GMT -5
Sasaki is the guy I really want. I hope he’s posted as a full free agent (because it gives us a better shot at him) and I hope we spend whatever it takes to land him. He’ll line up well with our window, too. Well, he checks the first box, at 6'2", 187# -- still only 22, so could fill in another 10-15# of girth. Still, you could cut and paste your post into a MFY, NYM, SFG, LAA, TOR, or virtually any team's fan chat board. The competition is not going to be any less fierce. Ultimately though, pinning your hopes to the Sox landing the shiniest free agent object isn't any less Sysiphean than it's ever been. Absent a few exceptions, we always lost out to MFY in the past (just ask Theo's mythical hotel room chair or Mark Teixeira's wife) and now you can add LAD and NYM to the clubs who have cut the line in front of us. The money is there but the prestige is ebbing. The answer, of course, is to build a winner from your farm so that you can at least guarantee consistent playoff runs. Until then, we may need to overpay a Montgomery, Giolito, Hader, Stephenson, etc., to boost what the farm can give us in the short term. With any luck, by the time Sasaki is ready to post, we'll have had a couple grabs at the brass ring and become a much more obvious finalist for him and others like him. What are the odds he’s posted before 25? Wasn’t Ohtani? I know he asked to be posted this year, so perhaps he wants to push to start his MLB career as soon as he can. If he’s subjected to IFA rules that takes away a lot of advantages the LA/NY, they’re in line to lose pool money. Teams can trade for more though
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 23, 2023 18:36:26 GMT -5
It seems likely that YY knew where he was going to go before he even started negotiating and everyone knew that. If it was money, Cohen wouldn't have been outbid. Imagine how much Dodger gear is about to be shipped from Thailand to Japan. The Dodgers wil certainly cash in on SO, particulary since he basically gave them a massive loan. But I'm pretty sure the money for shirts, etc. gets split up with the union and the other teams. And I'm pretty sure that the Red Sox aren't going to end up with as much money as the Dodgers for Dodgers gear.
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Post by asm19 on Dec 23, 2023 20:37:04 GMT -5
“One thing the Yankees considered when making their offer to Yoshinobu Yamamoto was that they didn't believe anyone should have a bigger deal than Gerrit Cole, per @jonheyman”
You would think a Cy Young Winner like Gerrit Cole wouldn’t get peeved about another pitcher making more money than him on the same team, but he also melted down in a playoff game at Fenway Park because fans were harassing him with Kermit puppets while he warming up, so who’s to say really
/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1446142881828311044¤tTweetUser=Jared_Carrabis
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Post by scottysmalls on Dec 23, 2023 20:46:10 GMT -5
Probably way overthinking it but I wonder how Cole would feel about the Yankees giving Yamamoto more money than him. I guess he’d rather they do it than another teamCalled it
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Post by incandenza on Dec 23, 2023 21:05:56 GMT -5
What an insufferable pack of ninnies. Just slap an inflation adjustment on Cole's contract and he can still be the Special Boy, you dingbats.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 23, 2023 21:47:11 GMT -5
“One thing the Yankees considered when making their offer to Yoshinobu Yamamoto was that they didn't believe anyone should have a bigger deal than Gerrit Cole, per @jonheyman” You would think a Cy Young Winner like Gerrit Cole wouldn’t get peeved about another pitcher making more money than him on the same team, but he also melted down in a playoff game at Fenway Park because fans were harassing him with Kermit puppets while he warming up, so who’s to say really /mediaViewer?currentTweet=1446142881828311044¤tTweetUser=Jared_Carrabis They called him Kermit the Frog? How terrible. Fortunately, the PA has negotiated a Cadillac health-care plan to cover Cole's therapy and repair the trauma. The guy with the Kermit puppet should get free season tix for life.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 23, 2023 21:53:27 GMT -5
The Dodgers wil certainly cash in on SO, particulary since he basically gave them a massive loan. But I'm pretty sure the money for shirts, etc. gets split up with the union and the other teams. And I'm pretty sure that the Red Sox aren't going to end up with as much money as the Dodgers for Dodgers gear. I think they will actually, except for the Dodger gear sold at Dodger Stadium. That's considered local revenue, so they get to keep all of it. But it's Ok because the Red Sox will more than make up for it with sales of Tyler O'Neill shirts. If somebody who knows more about this than me wants to point out that I am wrong, I will humbly stand corrected.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 23, 2023 21:53:38 GMT -5
“One thing the Yankees considered when making their offer to Yoshinobu Yamamoto was that they didn't believe anyone should have a bigger deal than Gerrit Cole, per @jonheyman” You would think a Cy Young Winner like Gerrit Cole wouldn’t get peeved about another pitcher making more money than him on the same team, but he also melted down in a playoff game at Fenway Park because fans were harassing him with Kermit puppets while he warming up, so who’s to say really /mediaViewer?currentTweet=1446142881828311044¤tTweetUser=Jared_Carrabis The Sox had a similar issue when they were trying to trade for Curt Schilling during Thanksgiving 2003. Schilling was trying to negotiate a new deal but Theo told him they couldnt pay him more than Pedro. This kind of stuff does happen. Big egos can bruise.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 23, 2023 22:04:44 GMT -5
“One thing the Yankees considered when making their offer to Yoshinobu Yamamoto was that they didn't believe anyone should have a bigger deal than Gerrit Cole, per @jonheyman” You would think a Cy Young Winner like Gerrit Cole wouldn’t get peeved about another pitcher making more money than him on the same team, but he also melted down in a playoff game at Fenway Park because fans were harassing him with Kermit puppets while he warming up, so who’s to say really /mediaViewer?currentTweet=1446142881828311044¤tTweetUser=Jared_Carrabis The Sox had a similar issue when they were trying to trade for Curt Schillong during Thanksgiving 2003. Schilling was trying to negotiate a new deal but Theo told him they couldnt pay him more than Pedro. This kind of stuff does happen. Big egos can bruise. Theo may have used that as a negotiating ploy, but Pedro is a bright guy and would have understood that his $12.5M/year (along with the $17.5 2004 option) was hammered out six years earlier and that BB salaries had risen. Also, Schilling ended up getting an AAV of just over $13M in his Red Sox deal, so by that measure he did surpass Pedro's $12.5M (not counting the 2004 option obviously). Pedro hasn't lost his sanity over it. But Schilling has certainly lost his marbles, not to mention his dignity, over something.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 24, 2023 10:05:36 GMT -5
But would they have though? As noted upthread, Yamamoto is undersized for an MLB pitcher and there have to be serious concerns about the longevity of his effectiveness the level of which has yet to be determined in the Show. If he proves to have the 4 year window of a Lincecum (and it's by no means certain he can achieve that level of success) that implies there is only a 2 and maybe 3 year window where the Sox' up and comers will arrive/mature into true solid major leaguers after which the team could be saddled with a very expensive severely underperforming "ace". The timing suggests that they might be better served waiting for Roki Sasaki to post by which time they will have (hopefully) solidified the team with the likes of Mayer, Anthony, Teel, Casa, Bello etc. Not saying they shouldn't have tried to land Yamamoto, but to believe that he was THE missing piece to put them over the top for years to come is a good bit of wish casting. What I think is 1) He was clearly their top priority for the offseason, the projections say that the winning bid for him was very reasonable, and if the Red Sox were serious about their "full throttle" offseason then they really should have offered him $300 million+. 2) I think they probably did do that? Several reports said they did, and the only hints that they didn't are coming from reporters who are writing these meta-narrative articles about what it "shows" about the Red Sox organization that they didn't sign him, full of innuendo but bare of facts. 3) They were, after all, one of the seven finalists for him, so presumably they were making some sort of serious overture to him.
4) But if they didn't make any offer to him at all, it might just mean that they figured out the game before the New York teams did: that Yamamoto was just leveraging bids to get the best possible contract from the Dodgers. 5) The Athletic could really use some better editors.
Wait, sports and news websites still have editors!? Dude, that's so 2016!
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Post by Guidas on Dec 24, 2023 10:23:11 GMT -5
I can't shake the feeling that the Sox, given their recent W-L records, would've had to/and will have to grossly overpay for any top tier free agents until they are seen as a legit playoff team. And by grossly overpay, I mean they would've had to come in somewhere around $350M-$360M for Yamamoto - stupid money that he can't say no to. And even then he might've said no for the chance to play with Ohtani and on a team that seems much better positioned for the post-season. Just a gut feeling, but remember when we were all laughing at the "overpays" Texas was making for Semien and Seager and saying "Why would those guys want to play there!?" I'm sure part of those exorbitant amounts was a tax for their record at the time.
Sadly, next year's Free Agent class looks to be as bad as or worse than this year's in terms of depth. You have some big names - Burnes, Fried, potentially Cole, a 31 year-old Alex Bregman and 35 year-old Zach Wheeler - and then a lot of second/third/fourth tier guys. Oh, and, of course, the immortal Franchy Cordero.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
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Post by radiohix on Dec 24, 2023 10:36:47 GMT -5
I can't shake the feeling that the Sox, given their recent W-L records, would've had to/and will have to grossly overpay for any top tier free agents until they are seen as a legit playoff team. And by grossly overpay, I mean they would've had to come in somewhere around $350M-$360M for Yamamoto - stupid money that he can't say no to. And even then he might've said no for the chance to play with Ohtani and on a team that seems much better positioned for the post-season. Just a gut feeling, but remember when we were all laughing at the "overpays" Texas was making for Semien and Seager and saying "Why would those guys want to play there!?" I'm sure part of those exorbitant amounts was a tax for their record at the time. Sadly, next year's Free Agent class looks to be as bad as or worse than this year's in terms of depth. You have some big names - Burnes, Fried, potentially Cole, a 31 year-old Alex Bregman and 35 year-old Zach Wheeler - and then a lot of second/third/fourth tier guys. Oh, and, of course, the immortal Franchy Cordero. You forgot a generational hitter in Juan Soto. ADD: And maybe Roki Sasaki too
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Post by Guidas on Dec 24, 2023 10:55:23 GMT -5
I can't shake the feeling that the Sox, given their recent W-L records, would've had to/and will have to grossly overpay for any top tier free agents until they are seen as a legit playoff team. And by grossly overpay, I mean they would've had to come in somewhere around $350M-$360M for Yamamoto - stupid money that he can't say no to. And even then he might've said no for the chance to play with Ohtani and on a team that seems much better positioned for the post-season. Just a gut feeling, but remember when we were all laughing at the "overpays" Texas was making for Semien and Seager and saying "Why would those guys want to play there!?" I'm sure part of those exorbitant amounts was a tax for their record at the time. Sadly, next year's Free Agent class looks to be as bad as or worse than this year's in terms of depth. You have some big names - Burnes, Fried, potentially Cole, a 31 year-old Alex Bregman and 35 year-old Zach Wheeler - and then a lot of second/third/fourth tier guys. Oh, and, of course, the immortal Franchy Cordero. You forgot a generational hitter in Juan Soto. ADD: And maybe Roki Sasaki too I stand corrected.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 24, 2023 10:56:48 GMT -5
I find next years class to better honestly
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Post by prospectjunkie21 on Dec 24, 2023 11:01:29 GMT -5
You forgot a generational hitter in Juan Soto. ADD: And maybe Roki Sasaki too I stand corrected. We think the sox are going to jump in on Soto all of a sudden or give Sasaki 400 million?
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,298
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Post by radiohix on Dec 24, 2023 11:05:09 GMT -5
We think the sox are going to jump in on Soto all of a sudden or give Sasaki 400 million? They can't give Sasaki anywhere near that number considering that he's under 25 so subject to the International pool limit. They'll have to convince him that they are his best destination in the same way the Angels did with 23 yo Ohtani
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Post by prospectjunkie21 on Dec 24, 2023 11:08:46 GMT -5
We think the sox are going to jump in on Soto all of a sudden or give Sasaki 400 million? They can't give Sasaki anywhere near that number considering that he's under 25 so subject to the International pool limit. They'll have to convince him that they are his best destination in the same way the Angels did with 23 yo Ohtani Good luck with that with othani and yy in l.a.
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Post by orion09 on Dec 24, 2023 11:15:46 GMT -5
I can't shake the feeling that the Sox, given their recent W-L records, would've had to/and will have to grossly overpay for any top tier free agents until they are seen as a legit playoff team. And by grossly overpay, I mean they would've had to come in somewhere around $350M-$360M for Yamamoto - stupid money that he can't say no to. And even then he might've said no for the chance to play with Ohtani and on a team that seems much better positioned for the post-season. Just a gut feeling, but remember when we were all laughing at the "overpays" Texas was making for Semien and Seager and saying "Why would those guys want to play there!?" I'm sure part of those exorbitant amounts was a tax for their record at the time. It does feel like the luster has worn off somewhat. Top free agents used to be excited to go to Boston. Not that we always actually splurged for them, but it had the reputation of a top destination. I’m also not sure who’s an attraction on the team, ie someone that top guys would want to play with, other than maybe Devers or Cora. Gone are the days of Ortiz, Betts, Bogaerts, et al. Maybe it’s just the lack of winning, but the vibe around the team feels kind of mid right now.
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mobaz
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Posts: 2,771
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Post by mobaz on Dec 24, 2023 12:00:39 GMT -5
What I think is 1) He was clearly their top priority for the offseason, the projections say that the winning bid for him was very reasonable, and if the Red Sox were serious about their "full throttle" offseason then they really should have offered him $300 million+. 2) I think they probably did do that? Several reports said they did, and the only hints that they didn't are coming from reporters who are writing these meta-narrative articles about what it "shows" about the Red Sox organization that they didn't sign him, full of innuendo but bare of facts. 3) They were, after all, one of the seven finalists for him, so presumably they were making some sort of serious overture to him.
4) But if they didn't make any offer to him at all, it might just mean that they figured out the game before the New York teams did: that Yamamoto was just leveraging bids to get the best possible contract from the Dodgers. 5) The Athletic could really use some better editors.
Wait, sports and news websites still have editors!? Dude, that's so 2016! Athletic now owned by NYT, which is well know for purging copy editors.
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Post by scottysmalls on Dec 24, 2023 12:32:52 GMT -5
They can't give Sasaki anywhere near that number considering that he's under 25 so subject to the International pool limit. They'll have to convince him that they are his best destination in the same way the Angels did with 23 yo Ohtani Good luck with that with othani and yy in l.a. Historically Japanese players have wanted to avoid destinations that already had a Japanese star (Yamamoto not withstanding). I’m not sure this is the advantage for the Dodgers that you think it is.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 24, 2023 16:58:33 GMT -5
I can't shake the feeling that the Sox, given their recent W-L records, would've had to/and will have to grossly overpay for any top tier free agents until they are seen as a legit playoff team. And by grossly overpay, I mean they would've had to come in somewhere around $350M-$360M for Yamamoto - stupid money that he can't say no to. And even then he might've said no for the chance to play with Ohtani and on a team that seems much better positioned for the post-season. Just a gut feeling, but remember when we were all laughing at the "overpays" Texas was making for Semien and Seager and saying "Why would those guys want to play there!?" I'm sure part of those exorbitant amounts was a tax for their record at the time. It does feel like the luster has worn off somewhat. Top free agents used to be excited to go to Boston. Not that we always actually splurged for them, but it had the reputation of a top destination. I’m also not sure who’s an attraction on the team, ie someone that top guys would want to play with, other than maybe Devers or Cora. Gone are the days of Ortiz, Betts, Bogaerts, et al. Maybe it’s just the lack of winning, but the vibe around the team feels kind of mid right now. It comes down to winning and whether the player understands and appreciates the difference between a midseason Fenway crowd and one in LA (with most fans only showing up for innings 3-7) or the Bronx (with the real fans stuck behind the Moat). Get some big playoff performances under their belts and plenty of guys will get to know and want to play with Casas, Bello, Crawford, Houck, Ceddanne, Duran, Wong, Abreu, etc. Use this off-season to jump start that by overpaying a Monty and others to boost the odds of sneaking in and making some noise like the D-Backs did this year.
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