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Post by kungfuizzy on Aug 3, 2017 11:38:51 GMT -5
Thank god Ownership stepped in and stopped this travesty. He's been as advertised. Overrated. He strips farms barren in order to try and chase a title everywhere he goes. Team could have Espinoza (Tommy John I know) Shaw (Possible NL MVP) Moncada Margot Kopech and others instead all they have to show for all of those deals more or less is Pomeranz Kimbrel and Sale. Fine players but 5 years from now give me Moncada Kopech Margot Shaw Espinoza and others. This guy has needed to go for a while now and can take Manager John with him. Trade Pedroia for a few prospects which they should have done two years ago. Team should be getting younger not aging. If he wants to do something good this offseason trade anyone on the roster over 31 and build like the Astros have. Put an emphasis back on player development. I never thought I would say the organization took a step back from Ben but at least we were flush with elite talent in the minors. Devers being promoted has put the Sox as a bottom 3 farm system maybe the worst in Baseball. Groome isn't a true #1 prospect he's shown more Trey Ball than anything else.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Jul 26, 2017 18:14:38 GMT -5
Xander better be going on the DL. Devers going down would be a bad move.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Jun 13, 2017 14:57:04 GMT -5
Power arms. What a novel concept? Maybe, DD isn't quite as dumb as many genius's on here think. Last two picks look really good. My issue is going to be when he trades these guys for a middle reliever.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Jun 12, 2017 20:45:04 GMT -5
Tanner Houck is the pick. Good pick. Will have a good career in KC after he's moved as a PTBNL for Minor
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Post by kungfuizzy on Jun 12, 2017 18:21:22 GMT -5
Ah I love this day. Or I used to. Before of course the farm system was destroyed beyond all recognition and sent into oblivion. Whoever gets picked tonight will be involved in a trade in the offseason anyways. But I just hope Dumbrowski picks a stud. Not holding my breath.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 23, 2016 8:38:43 GMT -5
Temperature check and keep in mind I don't like the Espinoza for Pomeranz trade... but that's mostly because I don't like Pomeranz... I'm very curious as to what people truly think of Espinoza and what they expect of him in the future. Also, do you think his value is greater than, less than or equal to it was at this same time last year. I think his talent is phenomenal but I also think he has an uphill climb to be a top MLB starter. Therefor trading him wasn't that painful for me. It was the return I did not love. Future ace. Even the best prospects struggle occasionally but his age and upside make him an incredible prospect. He's going to dominate in Petco park. D-O-M-I-N-A-T-E
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 23, 2016 8:37:03 GMT -5
That isn't a 100% sure winning formula. The 2000s Yankees notoriously held on to prospects for too long and won one title with no recent former prospect other than Cano being a protagonist. And it's not like the current Red Sox team isn't built around prospects. How much better of a core do you expect to build than what the Red Sox have right now? I'm not necessarily a fan of the exact moves that Dombrowski has made, but in the abstract, trading away pieces from the farm to bolster the Betts/Bogaerts/Price/etc teams of the next few years is the right strategy for this team. Not to sound like a broken record but what core is more impressive over the next few seasons Sale/Price/Hanley/Betts/X/Eduardo/Benetendi/JBJ/Porcello Or Moncada/Devers/Betts/Espinoza/Xander/JBJ/Benetendi/Eduardo while trading Price Hanley and Porcello for prospects. Can you imagine that pipeline? That was reality before DD. All now stripped away for a 3 year window where the clear best team in the AL just signed the best bat on the market. Indians also have a much better staff than Boston 1-5. Why implode the entire farm for this? That core with Moncada Betts etc could have grown together. And in 3 years this team would be on the cusp of a 10 year window.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 22, 2016 17:07:40 GMT -5
Tyson Ross was a perfect option to go after over Chris Sale for the following reasons. - Top end upside - Wouldn't strip the minor league system bare - Can be flipped mid season for more prospects once he proves healthy. This team should have gone the other way. They had the opportunity to get rid of that terrible Hanley contract and trade Porcello for elite prospect value and decided not to. I believe in a home grown core that can grow together. By the time Betts Xander and JBJ become free agents they'll be too expensive to sign if the Sox want to field a competitive team. Look at Detroit. DD destroyed that organization like he's turned the best farm system in baseball into the worst in 15 months. Imagine the prospects this team could have gotten for Porcello? A team like Washington would have paid out the nose for a CY Young winner controlled for 3 years. Hanley could have gotten a decent return or someone to take on most of that contract after his rebound of a season. I mean hell Price wasn't even half bad to the point that they also could have gotten a decent, not elite return for him from a team like St Louis that is ready to win now. Kimbrel could have gotten something back in value but not to the point of what they gave up. Pomeranz could have gotten a decent return, a few notches below Espinoza but a decent return. They should have blown it up not add Sale. Just my opinion. I love watching players develop its fun and I enjoy this more than the actual MLB team. Watching an elite talent like Moncada compete for the MVP every season in Chicago is going to be tough. I'm a fan of Boston baseball. I'm not a fan of this ownership or DD however. Nothing would make me happier than Hazen or Ben coming back to take the full reigns since the GOAT GM will never leave the Cubs. It's just going to be tough to see the Yankees see the success this organization should have had over the next decade. The system was stripped for a 36 month window. So you just want to continuously get vets cheap rebuild value and trade them for more prospects so you can watch a young core come up and develop and play together then move on from them once they become too expensive to sign? This is the Red Sox, there shouldn't be a too expensive to sign label. There is a not worth the cost label but not a too expensive to sign. I just caught up on the luxury tax from the new CBA, I think... and based on what I read this team shouldn't be that concerned about going over it and if they are they better be preparing to go over it down the road quite a bit to resign certain guys and continue to win. Exactly. Bring a young core up you don't need to buy a title. The 90s Yankees are great examples of this. They resisted dealing all their prospects and had a dynasty.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 21, 2016 4:37:46 GMT -5
I can't tell if you are serious, Tyson Ross who was non tendered by San Diego which has absolutely no starting pitchers why? And if we signed him and he was successful why would we trade him. Prospects are fun to follow, but a the goal of a team is to win championships not have the number one rated farm system. Apparently Theo is in on him who is a million times better than Dombrowski at evaluating talent. You trade Ross because this team is not ready to compete for a title. Yes they made the playoffs but they're still 1-2 years away without Sale. With Sale they have a maximum 3 year window to take it all. Then it's back to wild cards and 3rd place finishes for this team due to the inability to develop young talent. The Cubs have a top system and just won the WS. This can happen we've seen it first hand too. If Ross came back healthy you could get an amazing return on your investment in a trade. This offseason everyone besides Mookie Benetendi and Xander should have been available in a deal.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 20, 2016 19:35:36 GMT -5
Tyson Ross was a perfect option to go after over Chris Sale for the following reasons.
- Top end upside - Wouldn't strip the minor league system bare - Can be flipped mid season for more prospects once he proves healthy.
This team should have gone the other way. They had the opportunity to get rid of that terrible Hanley contract and trade Porcello for elite prospect value and decided not to. I believe in a home grown core that can grow together. By the time Betts Xander and JBJ become free agents they'll be too expensive to sign if the Sox want to field a competitive team. Look at Detroit. DD destroyed that organization like he's turned the best farm system in baseball into the worst in 15 months. Imagine the prospects this team could have gotten for Porcello? A team like Washington would have paid out the nose for a CY Young winner controlled for 3 years. Hanley could have gotten a decent return or someone to take on most of that contract after his rebound of a season.
I mean hell Price wasn't even half bad to the point that they also could have gotten a decent, not elite return for him from a team like St Louis that is ready to win now. Kimbrel could have gotten something back in value but not to the point of what they gave up. Pomeranz could have gotten a decent return, a few notches below Espinoza but a decent return. They should have blown it up not add Sale. Just my opinion. I love watching players develop its fun and I enjoy this more than the actual MLB team. Watching an elite talent like Moncada compete for the MVP every season in Chicago is going to be tough.
I'm a fan of Boston baseball. I'm not a fan of this ownership or DD however. Nothing would make me happier than Hazen or Ben coming back to take the full reigns since the GOAT GM will never leave the Cubs. It's just going to be tough to see the Yankees see the success this organization should have had over the next decade. The system was stripped for a 36 month window.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 20, 2016 16:21:51 GMT -5
If they keep DD as GM then the clear answer is no one. The reason is clear if you look at the Tigers roster. He's going to give out $30 million a year extensions like Oprah gives away cars. Fire him and beg Ben to come back and rebuild the farm. Might have to end up blowing it up in 2-3 years but that would be worth it. Have the top farm again.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 20, 2016 14:12:17 GMT -5
After the hatchet job done to this farm system that is either among the worst in Baseball or the worst this guy is probably in the top 10 top 15 with our prospects. Ends justify the means. Clay needed to go and they couldn't risk him going to the Yankees as a FA. Not the best return clearly but just a reminder on how bad this farm system truly is.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 9, 2016 16:37:33 GMT -5
I get it that we all love prospects and that we now have advanced statistics that enable us to quantify impact. I know losing prospects hurt, but here is my take. Let me know what I am missing: 1. Dombrowski has not been shy to trade prospects throughout his career but he has been right way more frequently than he has been wrong. 2. He has spent quite a bit of time on the farm system and despite pressure, did not trade the four B's who are in Boston and the only true "can't miss" prospects everyone has been asking for. 3. As much as we pat ourselves on the back about our farm system -- it has only been great on one side of the ball. We wouldn't have to trade prospects if we had developed any big league caliber pitching talent over the past several years 4. Especially after losing Ortiz, unless we upgraded our team (and pitching specifically), we weren't going to win any World Series anytime soon 5. Chris Sale is a huge get -- is there another pitcher we could have landed who comes anywhere close to his value 6. As great as Moncada may be, last September showed (and AFL performance confirmed) he certainly isn't ready for the big leagues yet. Very different than Benintendi. And Kopech is still very raw. My question to all of you -- If you didn't want DD to make this deal, then what did you want him to do? And if the answer is nothing, how do we plan to win the World Series. Easy, you stay the course. Pass on Moreland and let Brentz start the year as DH. Unless you don't trade Shaw then that's your DH. The playoffs aren't important yet. The Sox make it? Great. Personally I was mad when Ben was fired because he was great at stocking the farm with amazing top end prospects and DD destroyed that in 1 calendar year. Never would have made the Kimbrel Pomeranz Thornburg or Sale trades. All DD was on the losing end. Wouldn't have minded seeing Price Hanley Porcello and Pablo start the season and then dealing them at the deadline for elite prospects. Or just someone to take on Pablo's deal. Honestly look at this core it's young and homegrown. You should be adding to it not subtracting. Moncada is a future MVP and Espinoza is a future ace. To trade these guys and future probable all stars like Margot is awful.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 7, 2016 18:42:38 GMT -5
Easy. One pitcher out of the ones you named has trouble in September and October despite never making the post season. That's the difference. Sale could very well be David Price 2.0 So by your criteria, is Lackey a better pitcher than Sale and Price? Be reasonable. Lackey is in his late 30s. He was also never considered a top end guy. To be clear I'm not saying Sale can't be a #1 starter but he's clearly behind Kershaw MadBum Max Lester Arrietta and Kluber. Those are the real aces in baseball. Big difference between an ACE and a #1. An ace is what I would give up something like Kopech Swihart and filler for. Maybe Basabe. But you do not under any circumstance trade a future MVP like a Moncada who could easily be the next Trout/ARod and six freaking years of control.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 7, 2016 18:38:39 GMT -5
Anyone who thinks the Red Sox overpayed for Chris Sale should check out what the Nats just gave up for Adam Eaton. An overpay is an overpay regardless. I would rather the Red Sox still had Moncada. Now you're looking at a C level prospect like Diaz (who the Sox just gave up) as the best possible return for Mega Bust Pomeranz. DD torched probably the best farm system in baseball and reduced it to the worst.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 7, 2016 16:55:07 GMT -5
Arrietta Kluber and Mad Max for sure. I just can't call someone a true ace until they've actually pitched in the post season. Sale is a good SP don't get me wrong. Certainly not a complete waste like Price. But he is not close to any of those 6. Aces are supposed to be the rarest commodity in baseball. Chris Tillman is "an ace" not saying Tillman is better or anything nuts but honestly Sale is not an ace. He's on the next tier with Felix Strasburg Verlander etc...then a tier below that you have your David Price types such as Tillman. Those 6 you can at least rationalize trading a package headlined by Kopech and others. You never ever trade a future MVP like Moncada when you have it in your system. What would have happened if Boston traded Mookie or Angels traded Trout when they were in the minors? ....and what kind of metrics do you use to establish these tiers? Or are you more of a "just listen to my gut" kind of guy? There's not a lot of statistical support out there to suggest that Lester, Bumgarner, Kluber, and certainly Arrieta are any better than Sale. If your tiers are based on a gut feeling or even an eyeball test based on a handful of looks, we can probably stop this conversation right here. Easy. One pitcher out of the ones you named has trouble in September and October despite never making the post season. That's the difference. Sale could very well be David Price 2.0
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 7, 2016 16:20:20 GMT -5
I'll give you that he had a decent August which skews the numbers. K/9 will always be good. He was knocked around in July and September all while losing 2 MPH on his fastball. That's not an ACE. If you don't consider Sale an ace than who do you consider an ace in the MLB? You mentioned Kershaw, Lester and Madbum earlier do you consider anyone else in the league an ace or is just those three guys? Arrietta Kluber and Mad Max for sure. I just can't call someone a true ace until they've actually pitched in the post season. Sale is a good SP don't get me wrong. Certainly not a complete waste like Price. But he is not close to any of those 6. Aces are supposed to be the rarest commodity in baseball. Chris Tillman is "an ace" not saying Tillman is better or anything nuts but honestly Sale is not an ace. He's on the next tier with Felix Strasburg Verlander etc...then a tier below that you have your David Price types such as Tillman. Those 6 you can at least rationalize trading a package headlined by Kopech and others. You never ever trade a future MVP like Moncada when you have it in your system. What would have happened if Boston traded Mookie or Angels traded Trout when they were in the minors?
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 7, 2016 15:44:24 GMT -5
His 2nd half numbers scream ACE!! DD needs to Beg Chicago for Moncada back 2nd Half: 9.74 K/9, 1.68 BB/9, 3.15 FIP, 3.2 ERA And this is where I stop responding I'll give you that he had a decent August which skews the numbers. K/9 will always be good. He was knocked around in July and September all while losing 2 MPH on his fastball. That's not an ACE.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 7, 2016 15:16:58 GMT -5
[ Br] Disagree with this. He's not even close to guys like Lester Kershaw and MadBum. If he's an ace then the Sox are screwed. Never pitched in the post season. Aces can lead their teams to the post season at least once in 4-5 years especially in a garbage division. Sure the royals caught lightning two years in a row. This was a great opportunity for a home grown roster before Dumb Dave showed up. Price is a massive bust. The question with Moncada isn't if he will win an MVP but how many times will he. Awful. All for a good but not great SP You nailed it. It's his fault he pitched in a bad team and had to carry them. He's better than Lester and MadBum is a psycho in the playoffs, but Sale is better than him in the regular season too. Fun fact: If the White Sox won all of his starts this year, they still wouldn't have made the playoffs. His 2nd half numbers scream ACE!! DD needs to Beg Chicago for Moncada back
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 7, 2016 15:09:41 GMT -5
Is anyone going to be surprised when Moncada has a higher WAR than Chris Sale in two years? If they don't win a World Series in the next three years, the ensuing years of absolutely awful baseball that will follow in the next decade will be all because of Dombrowski and these insane shortsighted trades. What happens next offseason when Dombrowski trades Groome, Devers and Raudes for the next Sale/Kimbrel type of player who is good but not really great? Lumping Sale in with Kimberly is insane. You could argue that he's the #2 pitcher in baseball behind Kershaw. Also the core of this team is still very young. We have a ton of money coming off of the books as Bradley, Bogaerts, and Betts hit free agency too. We are still in a very good spot, albeit it is because Theo/BC drafted well and built an incredible farm. [ Br] Disagree with this. He's not even close to guys like Lester Kershaw and MadBum. If he's an ace then the Sox are screwed. Never pitched in the post season. Aces can lead their teams to the post season at least once in 4-5 years especially in a garbage division. Sure the royals caught lightning two years in a row. This was a great opportunity for a home grown roster before Dumb Dave showed up. Price is a massive bust. The question with Moncada isn't if he will win an MVP but how many times will he. Awful. All for a good but not great SP
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 7, 2016 14:51:56 GMT -5
While the Sox aren't going to get a future perennial Cy Young contender like Espinoza back for Pomeranz but maybe DD can salvage a lotto ticket and a C level prospect for Drew and Buchholz? 2021-2022 will be tough to see Espinoza and Moncada dominating MLB on cheap deals.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 6, 2016 21:43:43 GMT -5
Well if nothing else I guess this will generate excitement in the fan base, and probably lead to higher season ticket renewals, in this new post-Papi era. Which I am sure is a consideration for ownership. But I am all for getting arguably the best SP in the AL without having to give up any on the young talent already on the ML roster. Very excited to see Sale pitch in Fenway next season. When was the last time we had a dominant lefty starter? Babe Ruth? I hate this ownership too. Same reason Sox are in the hole they are in financially is because of Warner and NESN. No wonder why Ben ran away from this toxic situation as fast as he could. Dombrowski took a sledge hammer to this system that is now the worst in the MLB if you count real prospects not named Benetendi. Espinoza was gut wrenching and Moncada is too much. Just traded the closest thing in the minors to the next Pedro and the Next ARod for quick fixes and 50-75 cents on the dollar.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 6, 2016 16:44:02 GMT -5
Brian MacPherson @brianmacp Dombrowski offers "a tip of my cap" to Cherington, Hazen, Sawdaye for the work that regime did to develop such depth in young talent. Guessing this will not assuage the anger of some here. Kind of like a politician saying, "Hey, I won, OK?" Yep. Kind of backhanded if you ask me. It's like what's going to happen when Trump inherits the infrastructure of this country that is vastly improved and tears it all down because it doesn't fit his logic of "great". Dombrowski is the same way. His logic is to strip farms and trade every prospect for major leaguers. Thank god he has thus far resisted trading Benetendi. But I'm sure once Curtis Granderson becomes available again he's going to the Mets.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 6, 2016 14:55:41 GMT -5
Fire Dombrowski now. First the garbage trade today that sandwiched two Franchise crippling deals with SD and CWS. This adds absolutely nothing to the conversation and I see it as whining like a baby. You've had your 10 identical posts, now grow up. All due respect I don't see how it doesn't. It's the systematic pattern of stripping a farm barren that DD has done everywhere. This is awful.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 6, 2016 14:54:21 GMT -5
Well the good thing about the system not being any good is that now we really won't have to worry about who is traded. System is arguably the worst in baseball right now. Thanks Dave. You suck.
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