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2015 Boston Celtics Offseason
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 23, 2015 11:36:12 GMT -5
Over-paying players is a bad thing just by definition. You over-pay a missing piece. So either Monroe and Harris are over-paid or they are not. There's no this year versus 2 year from now. Two years from now factors in already if the contract goes into that time period. It's also not a 100% certainty of what the cap number will be so you can gamble and lose.
Harris and Monroe are both flawed players and I don't think a team in the Celtics spot should be jumping the gun on someone like that and I do like the guys. Monroe was talked about above, but Harris is a hybrid 3/4. We have a glut of 4s and Jae Crowder is kind of a poormans Harris at a fraction of the cost. Harris is a below average defender at both spots. He is very good at the corner 3 and below average at the non-corner three, yet he likes to take them. He's not a very good passer, but he can create a shot and score (very valuable).
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 24, 2015 11:11:44 GMT -5
It makes perfect sense, and there's a reason no one else on here is on your side. To clarify, it's not because you're smarter than everyone. I am right and you are wrong! Wait two years and see what players like Monroe gets on the open market, you will look back and go wow I was so wrong. By the way I am not smarter then everyone, but I am smarter then you! |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 24, 2015 11:26:26 GMT -5
What your saying would have been 100% true years back and I wouldn't have wanted to give Max money to guys that really aren't max players, but this isn't a few years ago. Signing Monroe and Harris wouldn't have stopped the Celtics from adding a max player for the next two years. The team wouldn't have been in purgatory at all.
I think adding those player would have made the Celtics much more attractive to free agents in the next two years. The team would have been much closer or at the point when one very good free agent could have made them legit contenders. Doubtful that we would've had the room for both Monroe and Harris, but even beyond that, I think we're better off with a young core than adding 2 guys on big contracts that realistically probably aren't star players. Monroe especially I don't see as a fit. We need a big who protects the paint, not another offense-oriented guy without the athleticism to defend the pick and roll well or block shots. Our current team +Monroe and Harris maybe gets us to 45ish wins, possibly a couple more, but it doesn't do us much good in the long run in my opinion. I'd rather give as much playing time to the younger guys as possible and see who emerges. That way you keep as much flexibility as possible and have more of a chance of developing young cost controlled starters, role players, and trade chips You would have to trade Wallace to clear cap space or do a sign and trade to get both players, but it could have happened. I am all for developing young players, but we don't have anyone that will likely become Monroe or Harris at the PF/ C and SF spot. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 24, 2015 12:04:20 GMT -5
Over-paying players is a bad thing just by definition. You over-pay a missing piece. So either Monroe and Harris are over-paid or they are not. There's no this year versus 2 year from now. Two years from now factors in already if the contract goes into that time period. It's also not a 100% certainty of what the cap number will be so you can gamble and lose. Harris and Monroe are both flawed players and I don't think a team in the Celtics spot should be jumping the gun on someone like that and I do like the guys. Monroe was talked about above, but Harris is a hybrid 3/4. We have a glut of 4s and Jae Crowder is kind of a poormans Harris at a fraction of the cost. Harris is a below average defender at both spots. He is very good at the corner 3 and below average at the non-corner three, yet he likes to take them. He's not a very good passer, but he can create a shot and score (very valuable). For one it is 100% certain that the cap will go up like all NBA experts predict. The contracts are signed, the deal is done. Heck the cap was 3 million higher then they predicted this year. Can we all agree that the Thunder minus the James Harden trade are one of the best run teams in the NBA? I think that's a given. They just way over paid Kanter. Why? Because by next offseason he will be making what he should and in two years chances are he will be underpaid. The Thunder traded James Harden so they wouldn't have to pay the luxury tax. Do you really think they would pay it for Kanter? They know with the cap increases that in the next two years they won't be in the luxury tax! I really can't believe how short sighted you guys are. In two years the value of a max contract will nearly double, that is a given. Why do you think Lebron James keeps signing two year deals with an opt out after one year? He isn't going to leave the Cavs, its because of the cap going crazy. He stands to make an extra 100 million or more by waiting. If you don't want to believe me fine, but I think you should believe that LeBron James knows what he is doing. I mean he is willing to risk what a 150 million that he could make on a long term deal this year, to get way more in the future, because he knows the NBA cap will nearly double in two years. He is risking having a career ending injury and a 150 million. Do you really think he does that if he isn't 100 certain that the cap is going to nearly double?
If you don't like Monroe or Harris, or you don't think they fit with this team, I can understand that and respect that. But if you don't think those two players on max deals this year are good deals, I can't understand that. Looking just at this year, with the current cap it looks like an overpay, but if you look at the full length of the deal they are no where near overpaid, they are going to be underpaid.
Also Harris is nothing like Crowder, they are two totally different players. If you could combine them, you would have one of the best players in the whole league. That's why I wanted Harris, he fits in really well with Crowder. When you needed a scorer you play Harris, when you needed D you insert Crowder. The thing with Harris is upside, he is so young that chances are he still has another large jump in his overall game to make.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jul 24, 2015 12:32:22 GMT -5
Over-paying players is a bad thing just by definition. You over-pay a missing piece. So either Monroe and Harris are over-paid or they are not. There's no this year versus 2 year from now. Two years from now factors in already if the contract goes into that time period. It's also not a 100% certainty of what the cap number will be so you can gamble and lose. Harris and Monroe are both flawed players and I don't think a team in the Celtics spot should be jumping the gun on someone like that and I do like the guys. Monroe was talked about above, but Harris is a hybrid 3/4. We have a glut of 4s and Jae Crowder is kind of a poormans Harris at a fraction of the cost. Harris is a below average defender at both spots. He is very good at the corner 3 and below average at the non-corner three, yet he likes to take them. He's not a very good passer, but he can create a shot and score (very valuable). For one it is 100% certain that the cap will go up like all NBA experts predict. The contracts are signed, the deal is done. Heck the cap was 3 million higher then they predicted this year. Can we all agree that the Thunder minus the James Harden trade are one of the best run teams in the NBA? I think that's a given. They just way over paid Kanter. Why? Because by next offseason he will be making what he should and in two years chances are he will be underpaid. The Thunder traded James Harden so they wouldn't have to pay the luxury tax. Do you really think they would pay it for Kanter? They know with the cap increases that in the next two years they won't be in the luxury tax! I really can't believe how short sighted you guys are. In two years the value of a max contract will nearly double, that is a given. Why do you think Lebron James keeps signing two year deals with an opt out after one year? He isn't going to leave the Cavs, its because of the cap going crazy. He stands to make an extra 100 million or more by waiting. If you don't want to believe me fine, but I think you should believe that LeBron James knows what he is doing. I mean he is willing to risk what a 150 million that he could make on a long term deal this year, to get way more in the future, because he knows the NBA cap will nearly double in two years. He is risking having a career ending injury and a 150 million. Do you really think he does that if he isn't 100 certain that the cap is going to nearly double?
If you don't like Monroe or Harris, or you don't think they fit with this team, I can understand that and respect that. But if you don't think those two players on max deals this year are good deals, I can't understand that. Looking just at this year, with the current cap it looks like an overpay, but if you look at the full length of the deal they are no where near overpaid, they are going to be underpaid.
Also Harris is nothing like Crowder, they are two totally different players. If you could combine them, you would have one of the best players in the whole league. That's why I wanted Harris, he fits in really well with Crowder. When you needed a scorer you play Harris, when you needed D you insert Crowder. The thing with Harris is upside, he is so young that chances are he still has another large jump in his overall game to make.
Why are we even talking about Harris? He was a restricted free agent who signed a near max deal with his current team after turning down max deals from at least one other team. He was never going to join the Celtics under any condition. Its not that it would have been a bad move to sign him, its that it is stupid to critique the team for not pursuing him/signing him. |
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Post by jmei on Jul 24, 2015 12:58:26 GMT -5
Also, I think the general consensus is that the Thunder front office is not that highly regarded, even outside of the Harden trade.
As the Yankees and Red Sox have shown us, even with a huge payroll, you can spend cash inefficiently.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 24, 2015 13:27:36 GMT -5
Also, I think the general consensus is that the Thunder front office is not that highly regarded, even outside of the Harden trade. As the Yankees and Red Sox have shown us, even with a huge payroll, you can spend cash inefficiently. Well everyone has an opinion I guess. But for years the Thunder were the model example of how to build a contender based on the draft and a little luck. Outside of the Harden trade what else have they done that is not highly regarded? I mean your looking at a team that's owner wasn't willing to pay the luxury tax. If he was they would still have Harden. That really limits of the options of a teams front office. Would Danny have been able to build a title contender without going into the tax? Outside of keeping Brooks as coach for years I can't think of anything they have done that has been stupid or second guessed by the league. Also we still won't know if Brooks was the problem for a few years. Moves like trading Green for Perkins were seen as just what the Thunder needed at the time and lead to Harden becoming a star. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 24, 2015 13:38:40 GMT -5
Why are we even talking about Harris? He was a restricted free agent who signed a near max deal with his current team after turning down max deals from at least one other team. He was never going to join the Celtics under any condition. Its not that it would have been a bad move to sign him, its that it is stupid to critique the team for not pursuing him/signing him. How can you say that? I think its totally fair to question why the Celtics never reached out to him, just like Monroe. Like I've said before if you don't sign him no big deal, I just want the Celtics to try and get players even if there is a small chance they might get them. Look at Dallas they almost got Jordan when they knew the chances were slim. Unlike Dallas us missing out wouldn't have ruined our chances in the up coming season. You never know if you reach out to Harris at 12.01pm when free agency starts if he wants to sign with Celtics. |
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jul 24, 2015 13:45:55 GMT -5
Why are we even talking about Harris? He was a restricted free agent who signed a near max deal with his current team after turning down max deals from at least one other team. He was never going to join the Celtics under any condition. Its not that it would have been a bad move to sign him, its that it is stupid to critique the team for not pursuing him/signing him. How can you say that? I think its totally fair to question why the Celtics never reached out to him, just like Monroe. Like I've said before if you don't sign him no big deal, I just want the Celtics to try and get players even if there is a small chance they might get them. Look at Dallas they almost got Jordan when they knew the chances were slim. Unlike Dallas us missing out wouldn't have ruined our chances in the up coming season. You never know if you reach out to Harris at 12.01pm when free agency starts if he wants to sign with Celtics. Are we sure they didn't reach out to Harris? There were some reports that we pursued him heavily and at least one that said we were one of the teams offering him the max. |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 24, 2015 13:50:49 GMT -5
Moving on . . .
In more desperate attempts to acquire a star, I have some questions about a post draft rumor that Utah might move Favors (based on Gobert, the drafting of Lyles and, at the time, an interest in creating room for a run at Millsap). So :
1. Do we think he still might be available
2. Any interest (from you all)
3. What would it take
4. Is he a star (probably no, but an upgrade?)
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Post by texs31 on Jul 24, 2015 14:20:58 GMT -5
Update:
I just asked Pelton in his chat if he thought Favors was available. Short answer = no
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Jul 24, 2015 14:53:26 GMT -5
Why are we even talking about Harris? He was a restricted free agent who signed a near max deal with his current team after turning down max deals from at least one other team. He was never going to join the Celtics under any condition. Its not that it would have been a bad move to sign him, its that it is stupid to critique the team for not pursuing him/signing him. ... the Celtics never reached out to him … You never know if you reach out … Exactly. |
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Jul 24, 2015 18:25:29 GMT -5
Lol, the Thunder have never been regarded as a model franchise.
Thanks for completely derailing this thread, guy.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 26, 2015 14:05:07 GMT -5
How can you say that? I think its totally fair to question why the Celtics never reached out to him, just like Monroe. Like I've said before if you don't sign him no big deal, I just want the Celtics to try and get players even if there is a small chance they might get them. Look at Dallas they almost got Jordan when they knew the chances were slim. Unlike Dallas us missing out wouldn't have ruined our chances in the up coming season. You never know if you reach out to Harris at 12.01pm when free agency starts if he wants to sign with Celtics. Are we sure they didn't reach out to Harris? There were some reports that we pursued him heavily and at least one that said we were one of the teams offering him the max. I have seem multiple reports from local sports reporters that the Sox never reached out to Monroe or Harris. All reports that Celtics were going to go after Harris were pre free agency and just sports writers opinions of who the Celtics should go after. Please if you have seen different reports please post some links would love to read them. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 26, 2015 14:10:42 GMT -5
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Post by jmei on Jul 26, 2015 14:58:47 GMT -5
That was 18 months ago. These days, noone thinks much of the Thunder front office. See, e.g.: espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12541459/nba-front-office-rankings-2015To get back on topic, you're continuing to brush aside the strong likelihood that neither Harris nor Monroe were going to sign with the Celtics, no matter now much they courted them. This is definitively true for Harris, who was a restricted free agent for whom the Magic would have matched a max offer. Even if he wanted to sign somewhere else, the Magic wouldn't have let him go. Similarly (though less definitively), Monroe had multiple teams offering him his max, and it was unlikely that he would choose to sign in Boston. If you pursue those guys, odds are you don't sign one of them, and your pursuit ties up your cap space in the interim, which means you can't sign guys like Johnson and Jerebko to reasonable deals. In addition, I'd probably rather have Johnson/Jerebko at their current deals than Monroe at his, both because I don't think he's much of an upgrade on those guys/the bigs that are already in the system, and because, as mentioned above, adding him doesn't make them a championship contender while limiting their flexibility. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 26, 2015 17:53:18 GMT -5
Also never said the cap wasn't going up just that we don't know the exact amount it will be. Sure it will go up a lot but an over pay is an over pay. Not to mention those guys aren't guys i want to build a championship team around...
Anyways, the more I leave about Rozier the more I like him. I love a guy who's a work out worrier and works his balls off and is never satisfied with things. Those are the guys you bet on and who you want on your squad. Hopefully, he develops and they can trade Bradley.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jul 26, 2015 19:09:40 GMT -5
Are we sure they didn't reach out to Harris? There were some reports that we pursued him heavily and at least one that said we were one of the teams offering him the max. I have seem multiple reports from local sports reporters that the Sox never reached out to Monroe or Harris. All reports that Celtics were going to go after Harris were pre free agency and just sports writers opinions of who the Celtics should go after. Please if you have seen different reports please post some links would love to read them. I'm curious where you read this on Harris. Everything I'm reading says they did in fact reach out to Harris. For instance: Read more at: nesn.com/2015/07/report-celtics-no-longer-pursuing-free-agents-tobias-harris-corey-brewer/ |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 27, 2015 12:20:41 GMT -5
Lee trade official (Wallace and Babb)
Cs also announce a trade for Zoran Dragon (Boston gets a 2nd rounder while giving up a highly protected 2nd rounder). Boston will waive Dragic so, in essence, they bought a pick from Miami.
Crowder becomes official soon and then the 1st rounders. After those moves, Boston is likely done outside of deciding who gets left off the final 15.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Jul 27, 2015 18:43:41 GMT -5
… Crowder becomes official soon and then the 1st rounders. After those moves, Boston is likely done outside of deciding who gets left off the final 15.I don't see how today's trade would prevent future activity. It seems a 2 for 1, or 3 for 1, would be more likely now, not less. |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 27, 2015 21:00:56 GMT -5
I was going with the notion that that would constitute a "big trade" and those don't happen a lot. I would think it's just as likely that they walk away from Jones or even Turner potentially then there being a multi player trade out there.
At this stage of the offseason, most teams are going into camp with what they have. Maybe a tinker or two.
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Post by ctfisher on Jul 28, 2015 8:21:34 GMT -5
I was going with the notion that that would constitute a "big trade" and those don't happen a lot. I would think it's just as likely that they walk away from Jones or even Turner potentially then there being a multi player trade out there. At this stage of the offseason, most teams are going into camp with what they have. Maybe a tinker or two. I think it's highly unlikely they just "walk away" from either of those guys, they could both probably bring back a 2nd rounder each in all likelihood, although I do agree some kind of blockbuster is unlikely |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 28, 2015 16:14:04 GMT -5
Why would you walk away from Turner?
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Post by jmei on Jul 29, 2015 7:37:13 GMT -5
The Celtics' final offer for Charlotte's ninth pick in the draft, per Zach Lowe of Grantland:
That's a ridiculous amount of value to have given up, and I'm glad the Hornets inexplicably turned it down.
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Post by ctfisher on Jul 29, 2015 8:21:20 GMT -5
Why would you walk away from Turner? Cause you could probably get some value for him and he's annoying, I hate that they run the offense through him so much, I'd much rather see the ball in Smart's hands. Basically the same reason the Sox just dealt Victorino: move an older guy who's average at best to allow younger guys to develop |
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