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6/17-6/18 Red Sox @ Braves Series Thread
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Post by jmei on Jun 18, 2015 19:25:31 GMT -5
But more importantly, let's actually take a look at money and players who signed for similar amounts to Sandoval. Couple things we will look at, age when signed contract, fWAR since 2010, contract status. Pablo Sandoval, 29, 13.7, 5/$95M + 1 option Nelson Cruz, 34, 14.2, 4/$57M Jason Kipnis, 27, 13.6, 6/$52M Erick Aybar, 29, 14.6, 4/$35M Edwin Encarnacion, 30, 14.7, 3/$29M + 1 option Carl Crawford, 29, 13.4, 7/$142 Angel Pagan, 31, 14.0, 4/$40M Elvis Andrus, 26, 13.5, 8/$120M Miguel Montero, 29, 12.5, 5/$60M Nick Swisher, 32, 11.7, 4/$56M Martin Prado, 29, 15.7, 4/$40M Matt Carpenter, 28, 14.4, 6/$52M + 1 option It's pretty easy to pick out the massive overpays. (1) Sandoval was 28 when he signed his extension (and will be 28 for most of this season). (2) It is grossly misleading to include pre-FA extensions on that list.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Jun 18, 2015 19:28:29 GMT -5
If the Sox are facing Shelby Miller, why didn't they call up JBJ to go 0-3 against him? Are you crazy? Why would they give Bradley plate appearances against a righty who doesn't throw a knuckleball? Oh no ... they ran him out there against Sonny Gray and King Felix last time he was up. Totally fine with righties, as long as they're unhittable.
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 18, 2015 19:38:32 GMT -5
Brock Holt has the hardest part of the cycle in the bag, now for the easy bits...
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Post by jmei on Jun 18, 2015 19:40:38 GMT -5
... But that's really the only argument you've got, because a three-win player signed through his age 28-32 seasons gets about what Sandoval got. Maybe you'll be kind enough to cite a few of those three win players making panda dough for us? And, what statistical evidence is there to support the idea that the team was buying a three win player? Sandoval was projected to be a three-win-or-better player by all of Steamer, ZiPS, and PECOTA. The idea was that because you're only buying prime years, you'd pay slightly more in AAV because you wouldn't buy his decline phase. The standard $/WAR calculations generally came out around what he ultimately got. His contract was broadly similar to that of James Shields or Victor Martinez, with a slight boost because he was expected to age less than those guys. Honestly, not sure why I'm defending the signing. I was voraciously against it when it happened and still don't like it. I guess the difference is that while I think it's a bad contract, I don't think it's unjustifiably bad. It was an overpay, but something like a $10m overpay, which you can live with.
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Post by jrffam05 on Jun 18, 2015 19:57:55 GMT -5
Maybe you'll be kind enough to cite a few of those three win players making panda dough for us? And, what statistical evidence is there to support the idea that the team was buying a three win player? Sandoval was projected to be a three-win-or-better player by all of Steamer, ZiPS, and PECOTA. The idea was that because you're only buying prime years, you'd pay slightly more in AAV because you wouldn't buy his decline phase. The standard $/WAR calculations generally came out around what he ultimately got. His contract was broadly similar to that of James Shields or Victor Martinez, with a slight boost because he was expected to age less than those guys. Honestly, not sure why I'm defending the signing. I was voraciously against it when it happened and still don't like it. I guess the difference is that while I think it's a bad contract, I don't think it's unjustifiably bad. It was an overpay, but something like a $10m overpay, which you can live with. You're not defending the signing, you're defending logic and common sense. I too thought Headly was a much better option, but it doesn't mean there wasn't any justification for the Sandoval signing.
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 18, 2015 20:01:18 GMT -5
Intentionally walking Sandy Leon? Nice.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 18, 2015 20:04:08 GMT -5
Intentionally walking Sandy Leon? Nice. Buchholz has a higher career OPS than Leon. Gonzalez is probably baseball's worst manager.
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ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,418
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Post by ianrs on Jun 18, 2015 20:05:27 GMT -5
Intentionally walking Sandy Leon? Nice. Buchholz has a higher career OPS than Leon. Gonzalez is probably baseball's worst manager. I was just thinking that Leon is probably worse than a pitcher. Glad there are some stats to back that up. Hilarious.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 18, 2015 20:07:14 GMT -5
On second look, Buchholz's OPS looks like it dropped below Leon's in the third inning. It's still really close, though.
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Post by mattpicard on Jun 18, 2015 20:11:24 GMT -5
Atta boy, Travis. Nice, nice play.
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 18, 2015 20:11:55 GMT -5
Did someone say Shaw can only play 1B?
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Post by jmei on Jun 18, 2015 20:12:04 GMT -5
Atta boy, Travis. Nice, nice play. If he can play a passable 3B, he suddenly becomes a very interesting bench player.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Jun 18, 2015 20:13:07 GMT -5
Why did it take this long to find out Shaw can play third? Wouldn't his minor league career look different if he came up as a third baseman?
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Post by jmei on Jun 18, 2015 20:18:33 GMT -5
Why did it take this long to find out Shaw can play third? Wouldn't his minor league career look different if he came up as a third baseman? Would not be crazy to think that he and/or the organization realized in the last few years that he wasn't going to hit enough to be a starting first baseman and tried to focus on his 3B defense instead. I believe he started playing more at the hot corner towards the end of last year and the start of this one.
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ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,418
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Post by ianrs on Jun 18, 2015 20:22:55 GMT -5
When I saw Shaw play 3B at Pawtucket a month or so ago he seemed above-average defensively as well. In fact, he made a play very similar to the one he just made. Glad to see it carry over to MLB!
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,312
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Post by radiohix on Jun 18, 2015 20:36:44 GMT -5
When I saw Shaw play 3B at Pawtucket a month or so ago he seemed above-average defensively as well. In fact, he made a play very similar to the one he just made. Glad to see it carry over to MLB! Actually, I started paying more attention at his playing time at third base after the few comments you posted here that day Thanks for that and keep up with the good stuff.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jun 18, 2015 20:36:45 GMT -5
He was actually signed to balance out a very RHH-centric lineup, which was the main worry all offseason. Look, I get it, you don't like him because he's fat. If you want to just fall back on lazy stereotypes, that's your prerogative. But that's really the only argument you've got, because a three-win player signed through his age 28-32 seasons gets about what Sandoval got when your organization has failed at a position and you feel (incorrectly) that the only way to fill the position is through free agency, the most inefficient method of talent procurement.
I finished the last sentence for you. I'm not trying to pick on jmei here, but I just hate this kind of thinking. A resourceful organization should not be in a position where it feels it has to pay $95 million for a declining fat guy. There are plenty of ways to get 2-3 win players. The 2013 World Champion Boston Red Sox had 12 players with bRef of 2.8 or more and nobody making $19.5 million. Danny Nava was making $505,000. The Cardinals, everybody's model organization, have one player making as much as Panda and that's Wainwright, a legitimate No. 1 starter. The Giants' have Matt Cain and he was a legitimate No. 1 guy when he signed his contract. Their highest-paid position player is Hunter Pence at $18.5 million. He was coming off his age 30 season in which he put up an OPS-plus of 133 when he signed his deal.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,312
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Post by radiohix on Jun 18, 2015 20:37:44 GMT -5
Pawtucket reunion!
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 18, 2015 20:43:28 GMT -5
He was actually signed to balance out a very RHH-centric lineup, which was the main worry all offseason. Look, I get it, you don't like him because he's fat. If you want to just fall back on lazy stereotypes, that's your prerogative. But that's really the only argument you've got, because a three-win player signed through his age 28-32 seasons gets about what Sandoval got when your organization has failed at a position and you feel (incorrectly) that the only way to fill the position is through free agency, the most inefficient method of talent procurement.
I finished the last sentence for you. I'm not trying to pick on jmei here, but I just hate this kind of thinking. A resourceful organization should not be in a position where it feels it has to pay $95 million for a declining fat guy. There are plenty of ways to get 2-3 win players. The 2013 World Champion Boston Red Sox had 12 players with bRef of 2.8 or more and nobody making $19.5 million. Danny Nava was making $505,000. The Cardinals, everybody's model organization, have one player making as much as Panda and that's Wainwright, a legitimate No. 1 starter. The Giants' have Matt Cain and he was a legitimate No. 1 guy when he signed his contract. Their highest-paid position player is Hunter Pence at $18.5 million. He was coming off his age 30 season in which he put up an OPS-plus of 133 when he signed his deal. Well put. If Pablo Sandoval isn't known as Kung Fu Panda, he's not getting 95m/5
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ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,418
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Post by ianrs on Jun 18, 2015 20:49:01 GMT -5
Well put. If Pablo Sandoval isn't known as Kung Fu Panda, he's not getting 95m/5 I bet the Red Sox hacked the Giants financial database and realized they could make $95 million over 5 years just by selling panda hats. So the front office signed him since the worst they could do is break even.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jun 18, 2015 20:49:06 GMT -5
No doubt Ben was convinced to give him the contract based on his Kung Fu Panda nickname. If only he had looked at some stats.
You guys are getting a little bit ridiculous. Agree or not with the signing, but putting it on his nickname gives you no credibility.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,312
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Post by radiohix on Jun 18, 2015 20:53:00 GMT -5
Oh My God! Those guys are a joke!
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Post by soxfan06 on Jun 18, 2015 20:53:39 GMT -5
It's like a rule that we have to give the runs back right after we score them.
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 18, 2015 20:55:09 GMT -5
It's like a rule that we have to give the runs back right after we score them. The actual rule is: if a Red Sox starting pitcher fields one or more balls in a game, he must commit at least one error.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jun 18, 2015 20:58:59 GMT -5
Not to sound defensive, but I didn't put it on the nickname. If that were the deciding factor, the RS would have found a way to acquire Tim "the Freak" Lincecum, "Joey Bats," and the "Grandy Man."
I also don't think they acquired him for his rare talent to do No. 2, punch his phone keyboard and eat a cheeseburger platter all at the same time. It was just a bad, misguided signing.
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