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Kyrie Irving to Boston for Thomas, Crowder, Nets 1st, Zizic
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 27, 2017 21:10:39 GMT -5
It was from bleachereport. I wouldn't totally discount the report but they've been wrong about a million rumors before. If the rumors are true, then I almost expect the deal to get voided if Cleveland doesn't get realistic. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 27, 2017 23:45:52 GMT -5
LOL nice try, but hell no. Rookie mistake by the new Cavs GM, he got way too greedy. Enjoy getting a Paul George package for Kyrie later.
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Post by tizzle on Aug 28, 2017 0:35:26 GMT -5
If they're asking for Brown or Tatum, that feels like a negotiating strategy- ask for one of them figuring Danny would never agree and then be prepared to "settle" for the LA pick. Mannix is saying the Celtics are saying no firsts no Tatum and no Brown. Basically, telling Cavs they knew the situation upfront we aren't changing the deal. I hope that's the case. It should be. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 28, 2017 8:13:41 GMT -5
It's not from Cavs perspective but we already have given up 4 players. I'm not adding more to the pot especially young Brown or Tatum. If they really want one of them while knowing Irving is gone, I'll give them one or the other in a swap and be done. Return of serve. At this point I would give no more than a second. Otherwise rescind the deal. No I was saying salary wise you cannot do a straight swap. There needs to be at least 2 other players with those guys (maybe just one with Tatum). Either way you are talking adding Crowder and likely another guy. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 28, 2017 8:14:13 GMT -5
It was from bleachereport. I wouldn't totally discount the report but they've been wrong about a million rumors before. If the rumors are true, then I almost expect the deal to get voided if Cleveland doesn't get realistic. No it was from multiple places on Twitter. |
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Post by texs31 on Aug 28, 2017 8:44:42 GMT -5
FWIW,
BRobb (BSJ) thinks that the talk of including Brown or Tatum wouldn't be on top of what was already in the deal but instead of Crowder or Pick (not that he believes C's will relent either way).
EDIT: He also does say that performance-based contingencies on the draft pick are illegal.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Aug 28, 2017 10:54:15 GMT -5
If they're asking for Brown or Tatum, that feels like a negotiating strategy- ask for one of them figuring Danny would never agree and then be prepared to "settle" for the LA pick. That's more like panhandling than negotiating. |
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Post by texs31 on Aug 28, 2017 12:29:59 GMT -5
Updates today suggest Cleveland hasn't actually asked for anything . . . yet.
Meanwhile, Boston signed LJ Peak to a partially guaranteed deal (ie camp deal) and are working out Thomas Robinson. Nothing can happen on the latter until the deal is complete.
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Post by texs31 on Aug 28, 2017 15:03:30 GMT -5
I'm now thinking that Danny included the BRK on 1 condition . . . that Cleveland come out a few days later and say they are concerned about IT's hip and may fail him unless Boston gives up more.
That way, when Danny says "no" and the deal is consummated as is, we'll all be relieved and rejoice that IT, Jae, Zizic and the BRK pick is all we had to give up.
Again, the man is a genius!!
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 28, 2017 15:46:18 GMT -5
I think Danny should now back out of the deal and say well, you guys waited too long. Next turn around and offer one time deal with a 1 day time limit to Cleveland and say It, Crowder, and one of the protected picks over the next several years. Two can play the game. What will any one else give that's worth the nets pick, that the cav's REALLY want because of LeBron possibly leaving. Crowder does not go in this trade, I think you offer him out there again and I bet you get a lot of interest. Danny is now open to moving the nets pick. Bet LOTS of teams will have interest there. IT part of the business is that he wants a max deal and it is out there that Danny will offer a good deal but not a max deal. Unfortunately as much as we ALL like IT you are not going to win the title with him as the lead guard. Lots of people think if this deal does not go down that the Celtic's are up the creek. It would be great to get irving at that price and age, but, there are lots of other possibilities that Danny could swing. Especially with the nets pick in play.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 28, 2017 15:58:26 GMT -5
Like what? Who are you getting that's anywhere near as good as Irving? That's the problem. Trying to upgrade from Thomas isn't easy.
Sure Danny can trade Crowder, but for what? Another draft pick? Chances are Irving is by far and away the best player available.
At the same time the Cavs won't find a better deal. This whole thing will work itself out. It just makes sense.
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Post by runabus on Aug 28, 2017 16:51:10 GMT -5
As the deal stands there's risk on both sides, and great potential on both sides. If Kyrie signs long term with the Celtics you don't look back then it's a good deal, not great because the price is high, but worth doing. If all we get is the two years still on his contract we gave up too much. The Cavs get a good chance of a top 5 pick in a draft with up to 5 potential franchise type players, plus the other 3 guys who all have a chance to contribute. For all the talk that the Celtics have more to lose if the deal falls through I don't see it that way. Thomas and Crowder are professionals, they understand the business. Sure they have human emotions but they know what's at stake for them and will play the best they can whether it's with us or somewhere else. Cavs will look like untrustworthy trading partners to other GM's, they'll look bad to their fans when they take a lesser package (and they may not even get the previous offers with less leverage now), and they'll look like a train wreck to players and everyone else. I say stand firm. Only thing I would consider is substituting another package of equal or lesser value for BKN pick.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 29, 2017 7:22:21 GMT -5
Like what? Who are you getting that's anywhere near as good as Irving? That's the problem. Trying to upgrade from Thomas isn't easy. Sure Danny can trade Crowder, but for what? Another draft pick? Chances are Irving is by far and away the best player available. At the same time the Cavs won't find a better deal. This whole thing will work itself out. It just makes sense. Right now irving is the best AVAILABLE player. But, who would have thought on June 1 that Paul, George, and Butler would all move? That kind of sounds like a band I remember from back in the 60's. Lots of things out there still trying to shake themselves out. New round of musical chairs next year with westbrook, George and LeBron. Probably others as well. You yourself have said on several occasions that the salary cap is a problem. There is no money available basically. I do not think that the main objective here is to upgrade for IT. Worked out as a fit of changing lead guards. If you went after Anthony Davis because he became available would IT be in the package? Who knows? As far as Crowder goes, right now he is in the way of playing time for Brown, Tatum and maybe the SMU kid. Brown and Tatum, in Danny's eyes, are the future of the team, so the more time they get the better. In some ways it does not matter what he gets for him. But he represents a great trade chip that he does not want to give away. You are correct. The cav's are not going to find a better deal with the nets pick included. I do not think Danny budges on this because it sets up things to happen in future trades if the other teams see that he will cave and add more. Gilbert on the other side is got a BIG ego and may tell the Celtic's to go to hell. Be interesting to see who blinks first. If the trade folds IT and crowder are going to be fine. IT will play his ass off this next year because he wants the big contract and wants to make sure nobody thinks he is damaged goods. The trade makes sense for both teams, even though I wish the nets pick was not included. But under the circumstances I see why. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 29, 2017 8:05:37 GMT -5
I think Danny should now back out of the deal and say well, you guys waited too long. Next turn around and offer one time deal with a 1 day time limit to Cleveland and say It, Crowder, and one of the protected picks over the next several years. Two can play the game. What will any one else give that's worth the nets pick, that the cav's REALLY want because of LeBron possibly leaving. Crowder does not go in this trade, I think you offer him out there again and I bet you get a lot of interest. Danny is now open to moving the nets pick. Bet LOTS of teams will have interest there. IT part of the business is that he wants a max deal and it is out there that Danny will offer a good deal but not a max deal. Unfortunately as much as we ALL like IT you are not going to win the title with him as the lead guard. Lots of people think if this deal does not go down that the Celtic's are up the creek. It would be great to get irving at that price and age, but, there are lots of other possibilities that Danny could swing. Especially with the nets pick in play. The Celtics cannot back out of the deal. No one on their side failed a physical. That's not how this works. But even if they could Crowders salary doesn't line up. You HAVE to add more players and the second piece almost has to be one of IT, Smart, Brown or Tatum. And with most of those second pieces you need a third pieces which is why Zizic was in the deal as well. If you try to not include one of those guys then you need to add 3-4 other players and that gets tricky based on who is even eligible to be traded. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 29, 2017 11:13:40 GMT -5
So yeah, apparently the Cavs found nothing new in IT's physical. Bush league move by the Cavs rookie GM, absolutely bush league and I'm looking forwards to that franchise fading back into irrelevance. |
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 29, 2017 11:22:11 GMT -5
I think Danny should now back out of the deal and say well, you guys waited too long. Next turn around and offer one time deal with a 1 day time limit to Cleveland and say It, Crowder, and one of the protected picks over the next several years. Two can play the game. What will any one else give that's worth the nets pick, that the cav's REALLY want because of LeBron possibly leaving. Crowder does not go in this trade, I think you offer him out there again and I bet you get a lot of interest. Danny is now open to moving the nets pick. Bet LOTS of teams will have interest there. IT part of the business is that he wants a max deal and it is out there that Danny will offer a good deal but not a max deal. Unfortunately as much as we ALL like IT you are not going to win the title with him as the lead guard. Lots of people think if this deal does not go down that the Celtic's are up the creek. It would be great to get irving at that price and age, but, there are lots of other possibilities that Danny could swing. Especially with the nets pick in play. The Celtics cannot back out of the deal. No one on their side failed a physical. That's not how this works. But even if they could Crowders salary doesn't line up. You HAVE to add more players and the second piece almost has to be one of IT, Smart, Brown or Tatum. And with most of those second pieces you need a third pieces which is why Zizic was in the deal as well. If you try to not include one of those guys then you need to add 3-4 other players and that gets tricky based on who is even eligible to be traded. Fully understand the Celtic's can not back out. Also understand that salaries have to match up. Trades like this are very tricky to pull together. I think it is more a case that I think the cav's got a good deal to begin with. If they want to back out, fine . If they think they can get a better deal somewhere else fine. If they come back later then and want to do the deal, then I think Danny offers a lot less. Match up salaries and all but a lot less no nets pick. |
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Post by texs31 on Aug 29, 2017 11:35:35 GMT -5
So yeah, apparently the Cavs found nothing new in IT's physical. Bush league move by the Cavs rookie GM, absolutely bush league and I'm looking forwards to that franchise fading back into irrelevance. There were reports that the deal was finalized by the owners. I'd also be shocked to learn this is going down without Gilbert's involvement. To suggest this is bc of a rookie GM or a "bush league" move misses that this is very likely caused or contributed to by the owner. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 29, 2017 11:51:57 GMT -5
There were reports that the deal was finalized by the owners. I'd also be shocked to learn this is going down without Gilbert's involvement. To suggest this is bc of a rookie GM or a "bush league" move misses that this is very likely caused or contributed to by the owner. Don't know man. Gilbert was always an a**hole but I don't remember him pulling stuff like this. The new person there is the GM, why should I believe he's not at fault here? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 29, 2017 12:32:17 GMT -5
Like what? Who are you getting that's anywhere near as good as Irving? That's the problem. Trying to upgrade from Thomas isn't easy. Sure Danny can trade Crowder, but for what? Another draft pick? Chances are Irving is by far and away the best player available. At the same time the Cavs won't find a better deal. This whole thing will work itself out. It just makes sense. Right now irving is the best AVAILABLE player. But, who would have thought on June 1 that Paul, George, and Butler would all move? That kind of sounds like a band I remember from back in the 60's. Lots of things out there still trying to shake themselves out. New round of musical chairs next year with westbrook, George and LeBron. Probably others as well. You yourself have said on several occasions that the salary cap is a problem. There is no money available basically. I do not think that the main objective here is to upgrade for IT. Worked out as a fit of changing lead guards. If you went after Anthony Davis because he became available would IT be in the package? Who knows? As far as Crowder goes, right now he is in the way of playing time for Brown, Tatum and maybe the SMU kid. Brown and Tatum, in Danny's eyes, are the future of the team, so the more time they get the better. In some ways it does not matter what he gets for him. But he represents a great trade chip that he does not want to give away. You are correct. The cav's are not going to find a better deal with the nets pick included. I do not think Danny budges on this because it sets up things to happen in future trades if the other teams see that he will cave and add more. Gilbert on the other side is got a BIG ego and may tell the Celtic's to go to hell. Be interesting to see who blinks first. If the trade folds IT and crowder are going to be fine. IT will play his ass off this next year because he wants the big contract and wants to make sure nobody thinks he is damaged goods. The trade makes sense for both teams, even though I wish the nets pick was not included. But under the circumstances I see why. You were surprised by the Butler and George trades? I wasn't. There were rumors for forever about Butler and for months about George. Nevermind it made sense. Top players on teams that can't come close to building a team that can win a title or even compete, go on the block all the time when there contracts are almost up. The Irvings of the worlds are the surprises. On one of the top 2 teams in league that out of no where requests a trade. Those don't happen very often. So when they do it's smart to jump on them. Rather than just wait and hope another player becomes available. Irving is young and under contract for 2 years. That's huge. Your next list of targets won't get traded and we can't sign them. So I have no clue why you brought up James, Westbrook and George. The money is drying up. Yes, I have said that. Thing is I was talking about players like Smart and to lesser extent Thomas. Teams will do whatever it takes to sign the elite guys like James, George and Westbrook. Look at the Lakers trading Russell to clear cap space. If they can get two max players to agree they will trade more assets to clear the rest of the money needed. Thing is you only trade players like Russell to sign top 15 to top 20 guys. Not guys like Smart or even Thomas. Those 3 players will have tons of teams offering them max deals. Thomas will most likely be different. A bunch of teams will want him, but the amount of max deals will most likely be small. Remember we have no cap space, it's gone. This trade was all about upgrading Thomas to Irving. Danny even said that Thomas health played a role. Now that you have upset a very emotional player in Thomas, the damage is done. Sure if this trade doesn't go through he will play hard, but I don't see him resigning now. If he leaves we can't replace him. Hence why this trade needs to happen. I can see Thomas taking less money to play somewhere else. He is all about respect. People have been doubting him due to his size forever. In his mind I'm sure he thinks the Celtics are trading him because they don't think he's good enough to win a title with. So looking at the big picture. If you want this trade to not happen. You really need to have another trade for a PG in mind. Otherwise we likely lose Thomas and have no one to replace him with. We would have the Nets pick, but right now all of the top players are centers, power forwards and small forwards. Unless you want Smart as your starting PG. I don't. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 29, 2017 12:38:58 GMT -5
For me this is all the new GM. Trying to prove his worth to the owner. Gilbert might have said do what you think is best to the GM. I just don't think it was Gilberts idea.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 29, 2017 13:37:58 GMT -5
We all might have to wait a while to get a answer. The Cavs have to let the league know by Thursday about whether to pass or fail IT's physical. That is still 2 days away.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 29, 2017 13:56:09 GMT -5
Right now irving is the best AVAILABLE player. But, who would have thought on June 1 that Paul, George, and Butler would all move? That kind of sounds like a band I remember from back in the 60's. Lots of things out there still trying to shake themselves out. New round of musical chairs next year with westbrook, George and LeBron. Probably others as well. You yourself have said on several occasions that the salary cap is a problem. There is no money available basically. I do not think that the main objective here is to upgrade for IT. Worked out as a fit of changing lead guards. If you went after Anthony Davis because he became available would IT be in the package? Who knows? As far as Crowder goes, right now he is in the way of playing time for Brown, Tatum and maybe the SMU kid. Brown and Tatum, in Danny's eyes, are the future of the team, so the more time they get the better. In some ways it does not matter what he gets for him. But he represents a great trade chip that he does not want to give away. You are correct. The cav's are not going to find a better deal with the nets pick included. I do not think Danny budges on this because it sets up things to happen in future trades if the other teams see that he will cave and add more. Gilbert on the other side is got a BIG ego and may tell the Celtic's to go to hell. Be interesting to see who blinks first. If the trade folds IT and crowder are going to be fine. IT will play his ass off this next year because he wants the big contract and wants to make sure nobody thinks he is damaged goods. The trade makes sense for both teams, even though I wish the nets pick was not included. But under the circumstances I see why. You were surprised by the Butler and George trades? I wasn't. There were rumors for forever about Butler and for months about George. Nevermind it made sense. Top players on teams that can't come close to building a team that can win a title or even compete, go on the block all the time when there contracts are almost up. The Irvings of the worlds are the surprises. On one of the top 2 teams in league that out of no where requests a trade. Those don't happen very often. So when they do it's smart to jump on them. Rather than just wait and hope another player becomes available. Irving is young and under contract for 2 years. That's huge. Your next list of targets won't get traded and we can't sign them. So I have no clue why you brought up James, Westbrook and George. The money is drying up. Yes, I have said that. Thing is I was talking about players like Smart and to lesser extent Thomas. Teams will do whatever it takes to sign the elite guys like James, George and Westbrook. Look at the Lakers trading Russell to clear cap space. If they can get two max players to agree they will trade more assets to clear the rest of the money needed. Thing is you only trade players like Russell to sign top 15 to top 20 guys. Not guys like Smart or even Thomas. Those 3 players will have tons of teams offering them max deals. Thomas will most likely be different. A bunch of teams will want him, but the amount of max deals will most likely be small. Remember we have no cap space, it's gone. This trade was all about upgrading Thomas to Irving. Danny even said that Thomas health played a role. Now that you have upset a very emotional player in Thomas, the damage is done. Sure if this trade doesn't go through he will play hard, but I don't see him resigning now. If he leaves we can't replace him. Hence why this trade needs to happen. I can see Thomas taking less money to play somewhere else. He is all about respect. People have been doubting him due to his size forever. In his mind I'm sure he thinks the Celtics are trading him because they don't think he's good enough to win a title with. So looking at the big picture. If you want this trade to not happen. You really need to have another trade for a PG in mind. Otherwise we likely lose Thomas and have no one to replace him with. We would have the Nets pick, but right now all of the top players are centers, power forwards and small forwards. Unless you want Smart as your starting PG. I don't. Pedro is right. No point in any further discussion. Your opinions become fact. I should have known that you would not be surprised by anything. But, I will say this, some of your opinions make excellent points. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 29, 2017 14:14:58 GMT -5
For me this is all the new GM. Trying to prove his worth to the owner. Gilbert might have said do what you think is best to the GM. I just don't think it was Gilberts idea. Same here. Gilbert is not a great guy, but he's not flat out stupid either. This shenanigan by the Cavs is looking like sheer stupidity and it reeks to a kind of incompetence that is beyond whatever Gilbert has done to this day. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 29, 2017 14:39:16 GMT -5
You were surprised by the Butler and George trades? I wasn't. There were rumors for forever about Butler and for months about George. Nevermind it made sense. Top players on teams that can't come close to building a team that can win a title or even compete, go on the block all the time when there contracts are almost up. The Irvings of the worlds are the surprises. On one of the top 2 teams in league that out of no where requests a trade. Those don't happen very often. So when they do it's smart to jump on them. Rather than just wait and hope another player becomes available. Irving is young and under contract for 2 years. That's huge. Your next list of targets won't get traded and we can't sign them. So I have no clue why you brought up James, Westbrook and George. The money is drying up. Yes, I have said that. Thing is I was talking about players like Smart and to lesser extent Thomas. Teams will do whatever it takes to sign the elite guys like James, George and Westbrook. Look at the Lakers trading Russell to clear cap space. If they can get two max players to agree they will trade more assets to clear the rest of the money needed. Thing is you only trade players like Russell to sign top 15 to top 20 guys. Not guys like Smart or even Thomas. Those 3 players will have tons of teams offering them max deals. Thomas will most likely be different. A bunch of teams will want him, but the amount of max deals will most likely be small. Remember we have no cap space, it's gone. This trade was all about upgrading Thomas to Irving. Danny even said that Thomas health played a role. Now that you have upset a very emotional player in Thomas, the damage is done. Sure if this trade doesn't go through he will play hard, but I don't see him resigning now. If he leaves we can't replace him. Hence why this trade needs to happen. I can see Thomas taking less money to play somewhere else. He is all about respect. People have been doubting him due to his size forever. In his mind I'm sure he thinks the Celtics are trading him because they don't think he's good enough to win a title with. So looking at the big picture. If you want this trade to not happen. You really need to have another trade for a PG in mind. Otherwise we likely lose Thomas and have no one to replace him with. We would have the Nets pick, but right now all of the top players are centers, power forwards and small forwards. Unless you want Smart as your starting PG. I don't. Pedro is right. No point in any further discussion. Your opinions become fact. I should have known that you would not be surprised by anything. But, I will say this, some of your opinions make excellent points. My opinions are my opinions. That doesn't change the facts surrounding this trade. We made this trade to upgrade from Thomas to Irving, that's a fact not an opinion. Thomas is pissed off, that's another fact. If you like the trade is an opinion. Your opinion can be we should walk away if we can. That doesn't change the facts that this trade or would be trade has changed things. It's a fact that it has. It's not like even if this trade falls apart things go back to what they were two weeks ago. They don't, that's another fact. So don't be upset at me if you get the facts wrong when you give your opinions. The fact is if the trade falls apart we have a ton of issues we didn't have two weeks ago. We won't have near as many options as we once did. |
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Aug 29, 2017 16:28:30 GMT -5
For me this is all the new GM. Trying to prove his worth to the owner. Gilbert might have said do what you think is best to the GM. I just don't think it was Gilberts idea. Same here. Gilbert is not a great guy, but he's not flat out stupid either. This shenanigan by the Cavs is looking like sheer stupidity and it reeks to a kind of incompetence that is beyond whatever Gilbert has done to this day. Gilbert is indeed pretty stupid. |
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