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Kyrie Irving to Boston for Thomas, Crowder, Nets 1st, Zizic
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Post by texs31 on Aug 29, 2017 17:01:20 GMT -5
Don't see Gilbert not influencing this heavily.
Could be the GM told him a better deal was on the table (especially if reports that Gilbert consummated the deal himself are true). Gilbert authorizes this.
After watching his fellow owner get thrown under by his GM (not that a rookie GM would do this) saying that a better offer was available a couple days prior (Vlade re: Cousins) . . .
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 29, 2017 18:21:25 GMT -5
If they had a better offer they could just call the deal off due to the physical. That's not what they are doing.
I just can't see an owner agreeing to a deal, then saying nope I messed up my GM was right.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 29, 2017 19:38:28 GMT -5
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Post by texs31 on Aug 29, 2017 20:50:48 GMT -5
At the time of that post, we had no idea what they were doing.
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Post by texs31 on Aug 29, 2017 20:53:01 GMT -5
This not getting done would seem like spite now.
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Post by texs31 on Aug 29, 2017 21:00:51 GMT -5
FWIW Cavs ex-GM Griffin thinks this gets done as is.
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 29, 2017 21:05:35 GMT -5
Gilbert is indeed pretty stupid. Not this kind of stupid, not when he doesn't have an history of meddling with GMs to get them to bamboozle fools after agreeing to a trade. |
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Post by texs31 on Aug 29, 2017 21:29:24 GMT -5
Fire your GM when he supposedly has a deal on the table for Butler kinda stupid?
EDIT For completeness, he wasn't fired but still.
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Post by patford on Aug 29, 2017 22:11:05 GMT -5
As much as I like the deal Ainge should give up nothing. This is one of the most bush league moves ever pulled by a G.M. in the history of pro sports.
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 29, 2017 23:39:15 GMT -5
Fire your GM when he supposedly has a deal on the table for Butler kinda stupid? EDIT For completeness, he wasn't fired but still. See, that's regular incompetence although of some relatively high order. Using a physical that doesn't reveal new info to hold a team hostage to give up more assets on a previously agreed upon trade? On Danny Ainge of all people? Nah man, Gilbert is not bright but he's not that barely functional troglodyte. He's been around for a little while, he knows that stuff doesn't fly and will make every team in the league second guess if they should trade with the Cavs. It's one thing to have a messy kitchen, it's another thing to invite people to see it. Of course I don't know the situation. Maybe it is Gilbert and we'll find out eventually because we always do. But on an uneducated opinion based on everything I've seen? I think this is on the GM. |
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 30, 2017 4:47:48 GMT -5
Pedro is right. No point in any further discussion. Your opinions become fact. I should have known that you would not be surprised by anything. But, I will say this, some of your opinions make excellent points. My opinions are my opinions. That doesn't change the facts surrounding this trade. We made this trade to upgrade from Thomas to Irving, that's a fact not an opinion. Thomas is pissed off, that's another fact. If you like the trade is an opinion. Your opinion can be we should walk away if we can. That doesn't change the facts that this trade or would be trade has changed things. It's a fact that it has. It's not like even if this trade falls apart things go back to what they were two weeks ago. They don't, that's another fact. So don't be upset at me if you get the facts wrong when you give your opinions. The fact is if the trade falls apart we have a ton of issues we didn't have two weeks ago. We won't have near as many options as we once did. Certainly not upset. Thank you for sorting out all my facts and opinions. Time will tell whether this trade, probably, goes down. Time will also tell whether this turns out to be a good trade for the Celtic's. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 30, 2017 5:02:50 GMT -5
If they had a better offer they could just call the deal off due to the physical. That's not what they are doing. I just can't see an owner agreeing to a deal, then saying nope I messed up my GM was right. They are probably getting last trade offers from everyone and anyone and seeing if another team gets desperate and beats the Celtics offer, most likely. The whole world knows what the Celtics offer is. Now the Cavs want to see who values Irving the most to beat that offer. No team will probably want to beat this offer (most likely) and the deal will hopefully be done by late Wednesday night at the latest. The deadline is on early Thursday morning, so that's what has to happen imo. |
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 30, 2017 6:00:43 GMT -5
If they had a better offer they could just call the deal off due to the physical. That's not what they are doing. I just can't see an owner agreeing to a deal, then saying nope I messed up my GM was right. They are probably getting last trade offers from everyone and anyone and seeing if another team gets desperate and beats the Celtics offer, most likely. The whole world knows what the Celtics offer is. Now the Cavs want to see who values Irving the most to beat that offer. No team will probably want to beat this offer (most likely) and the deal will hopefully be done by late Wednesday night at the latest. The deadline is on early Thursday morning, so that's what has to happen imo. That is an interesting thought. Other teams looking at beating the deal knowing the price ? But, can the cav's do that right now? Void the deal based on the physical and take the new offer. The suns supposedly had a super offer. Hopefully Danny does not cave and the deal goes thru as is. I think thru out this thread, I have not explained myself very well, I am more pissed that the cav's agreed to a deal and are playing texas hold'em poker with us. The cav's have a very good deal the way it is. I like that thought Pedro. |
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Post by texs31 on Aug 30, 2017 7:10:44 GMT -5
To answer your question, Ryan, I'm going to assume (for a moment) that this IS what is going on.
In this situation, I think it would be easy for them to do. There is a known injury so it comes down to the medical opinion of their staff. As UMASS indicated, they could just fail the player's physical and move on (they haven't done it yet but, in this assumed scenario, they could be negotiating with that other team bc they THINK they can get a better offer - or one with less uncertainty anyway).
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 30, 2017 7:13:16 GMT -5
They are probably getting last trade offers from everyone and anyone and seeing if another team gets desperate and beats the Celtics offer, most likely. The whole world knows what the Celtics offer is. Now the Cavs want to see who values Irving the most to beat that offer. No team will probably want to beat this offer (most likely) and the deal will hopefully be done by late Wednesday night at the latest. The deadline is on early Thursday morning, so that's what has to happen imo. That is an interesting thought. Other teams looking at beating the deal knowing the price ? But, can the cav's do that right now? Void the deal based on the physical and take the new offer. The suns supposedly had a super offer. Hopefully Danny does not cave and the deal goes thru as is. Yes, the Cavs can void any deal that doesn't pass a physical. Isaah Thomas can't even run at this point, so that should tell everyone if he can pass a physical or not right now. I don't personally care if it's a late first rounder, a second round pick, or even 2 second round picks. None of these picks hold any real value anyways. This trade has to get done or you're fighting for a playoff spot next year and you might get bounced early in the playoffs with a questionable IT durability wise all year. That and the uncertainty of Brooklyn actually getting possibly better is another reason why I want this deal done before everyone knows that they're going to be better by looking at the record and projecting wins by the end of the season. There's no other way but up for Brooklyn, especially when you got teams like the Bulls who are trending way down. I almost feel better about getting the Lakers 2-5 pick more than I feel better that the Nets are getting a 1-5 pick. The Lakers play in a loaded conference, the Nets don't play in a loaded conference. |
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Post by texs31 on Aug 30, 2017 8:03:02 GMT -5
I would disagree with the "fighting for a playoff spot" assessment. Not to suggest that they COULDN'T be in that position but it would be far from a certainty.
The things that put them at the greatest risk to be in that situation are the things that are present regardless of IT's absence (rebounding, rim-protection and going from Bradley to Brown). Otherwise:
1. Smart's D is an OBVIOUS upgrade (figured I'd get the easy one out of the way)
2. Hayward not only replaces a significant chunk of the PPG but has the "go-to-guy" mentality that isn't necessarily captured by PPG but is needed from a top player.
3. Do the other players see an uptick in scoring without IT?
4. You've added a better offensive option for your second unit in Tatum
5. Maybe most importantly, the chances that IT would've been IT on this new team were pretty low. I'd have to find the supporting statistics but it would SEEM that the additions of Hayward and Tatum would decrease the scoring (and even primary ball handling duties). I love IT and mean this only to be question but if his PPG and ball handling duties are decreased, how many points does he have to score to offset the defense?
Most of these are just possibilities. But, if Stevens is the coach we think he is, is it impossible to see a scenario where he makes that team work?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 30, 2017 8:10:52 GMT -5
Yeah, ultimately I think they get in now with Hayward and Tatum but I think there's a chance they get bounced early in the playoffs with the IT questions. Fighting for a playoff spot was just a figurative term that I used to think they'd be bunched up with the rest of the seeds 5-10 most likely, until the last week of the year perhaps.
IT will probably never replicate what he did last season in any fashion but I do think there's a huge chance he could of been the IT of 2 years ago. Good but not great player on a improved team.
Now with this hip thing, I'm not even sure he can be the IT of even two years ago.
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Post by texs31 on Aug 30, 2017 8:40:41 GMT -5
Pretty good article by Zach Lowe on all things IT/Kyrie/Boston. Includes:
1. Confirmation of Cleveland asking for more last night
2. Potential competing offers
3. Kyrie's short comings
4. Why that could change with Boston/Stevens
5. Boston still being a frontrunner for Davis should he become available.
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Post by texs31 on Aug 30, 2017 8:47:02 GMT -5
FWIW, BRobb doesn't actually think they are receiving new offers. Just believes that, by acting the way they are, they are telling the league they are willing to walk away from the deal.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 30, 2017 9:13:01 GMT -5
Shouldn't Cleveland have to prove that their physical shows something materially different from the medical reports the Celtics gave them or is there no criteria at all on physicals nixing deals? I don't think this GM is going to have a long NBA career.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 30, 2017 9:20:46 GMT -5
That is an interesting thought. Other teams looking at beating the deal knowing the price ? But, can the cav's do that right now? Void the deal based on the physical and take the new offer. The suns supposedly had a super offer. Hopefully Danny does not cave and the deal goes thru as is. Yes, the Cavs can void any deal that doesn't pass a physical. Isaah Thomas can't even run at this point, so that should tell everyone if he can pass a physical or not right now. I don't personally care if it's a late first rounder, a second round pick, or even 2 second round picks. None of these picks hold any real value anyways. This trade has to get done or you're fighting for a playoff spot next year and you might get bounced early in the playoffs with a questionable IT durability wise all year. That and the uncertainty of Brooklyn actually getting possibly better is another reason why I want this deal done before everyone knows that they're going to be better by looking at the record and projecting wins by the end of the season. There's no other way but up for Brooklyn, especially when you got teams like the Bulls who are trending way down. I almost feel better about getting the Lakers 2-5 pick more than I feel better that the Nets are getting a 1-5 pick. The Lakers play in a loaded conference, the Nets don't play in a loaded conference. Yup you guys are right. I was being a little/lot naïve. Thought if you give your word on a deal you should keep it or reject the deal. Understand the impact this has. The scoring dynamics on the team changes even with a healthy IT. Hayward is capable of scoring 20 and Tatum looks like he is going to be able to score. Maybe 10 -15 a night. IT would not have to carry the load. Still need a point guard who can score. Was not aware that IT could not even run yet. Changes the situation some. Makes sense about the laker's pick. |
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Post by texs31 on Aug 30, 2017 9:33:44 GMT -5
Shouldn't Cleveland have to prove that their physical shows something materially different from the medical reports the Celtics gave them or is there no criteria at all on physicals nixing deals? I don't think this GM is going to have a long NBA career. Couple of things on this: 1. There a differing opinions all the time (it's why people are encouraged to seek 2nd opinions even in every day life). 2 doctors COULD come to 2 different conclusions when presented with the same medical information. 2. I don't remember the exact wording but I recall, shortly before this came out, Boston (Stevens??) said they'd need to do another scan on IT before being able to predict his availability. That ambiguity gives them coverage in the "full disclosure" debate, I would think. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 30, 2017 12:14:31 GMT -5
I just don't think this is about another team offering more. What was it, 20 teams discussed an Irving trade with the Cavs over a month long period. The end result was a mega offer by the Celtics. 90 % of the so called experts thought Cavs won trade and Celtics overpaid. This wasn't a Cousins trade were it looked like they didn't get full value and by reports there were what teams felt were better offers on the table. Right now report's say the Bucks had the second best offer. Middleton and Brogdon was there best offer. Lowe thinks they would have added a first round pick if that's what it took. They never got to that point because that offer while decent isn't even close to the Celtics offer. Take out the Nets pick and offer is still better.
You have to give a physical in good faith per NBA rules. From what I've seen it's against the rules to negotiate with other teams after agreeing to a trade. If this gets nixed I bet the Celtics fill a complaint and the Cavs know this. It's like Clevelands GM doesn't know the NBA rules. There is a reason no new offers have come out, it's illegal for the Cavs to be talking with other teams right now. It's like it took from Friday to Tuesday for the Cavs new GM to learn the rules.
The Lakers play in a loaded confrence but they have a ton of upside. They got the Nets best player from last year. They have an elite rookie that makes players around him better. They have a ton of really good young players that can make major leaps and I mean a ton. Ball is just a perfect fit on that team. Going from a combo guard in Russell to an elite passer like Ball is just massive. They then added Hart, Kuzma and Bryant later in the draft. Hart is my pick for a rookie surprise like Brogdon last year. Kuzma can really shoot the ball and was awesome in the pre-draft process and summer league. That is an epic draft and Ball, Hart and Kuzma all look ready to play now. Magic Johnson has made a world of difference. You couldn't ask for a better off-season. I don't think any team in the league added more talent than they did overall. Lopez, KCP, Ball, Hart, Kuzma, and Bryant, were added to Ingram, Clarkson, Randle, Zubac, and Nance. They still have Vets like Deng and Brewer. I have a hard time feeling good about the Lakers. For me it's all about the Kings.
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Post by texs31 on Aug 30, 2017 14:00:38 GMT -5
Again, the key to that LAL pick is how they approach the season. Is it about being as good as they can be? Or is it about prepping for the offseason? The latter could see some in season trades giving up some of that talent in exchange for future assets.
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Post by texs31 on Aug 30, 2017 14:06:24 GMT -5
Lowe's article also says there is, at least, a slight chance that Thomas misses most of 17-18. In that scenario, the Boston offer is VERY different (without the BRK pick, at least).
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