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7/31-8/2 Red Sox @ Yankees Series Thread
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 3, 2020 1:07:17 GMT -5
Buddy, if you can't take joy in the simple pleasures of life, like not having Eduardo Nunez on the team, then I really think you need to re-examine your priorities - think about what really matters. He didn’t bother me like he did other people. I worry about guys who the team really relies on. I don’t sweat the small stuff. This is Baseball though, not Basketball. The small stuff matters, like it's massive. Getting the best player in the game does nothing for a team if they don't have good depth. Look at the 2019 team it was crazy talented with as many elite players as any team. You didn't have the small stuff to cover injuries like in 2018. There wasn't a Brain Johnson and Vazquez to fill in. Those guys didn't put up huge numbers, yet can make a massive difference if they give you innings and aren't horrible. This teams depth with positional players is going to be very good in 2021. Heck if it was a regular season I would have expected a bunch of guys this year. That's a huge piece when you look back at trading for Nunez and playing him so much. We have a few pitchers, yet not enough. They'll have to make trades or sign 2-4 guys. Yet the margins matter here also. Look at Perez, he's a #6 for me on a true title contender. Not close to an elite guy, yet the difference from him to guys like Weber and Hall is crazy big. A 1-2 bwar pitcher doesn't look that good till you have to watch -2-3 bwar pitchers pitch every five days. Looking at 2021 I see the small stuff as a bigger issue than elite players. You basically think the opposite. The difference from Holt to Nunez is massive in my book. Maybe the guys that are close don't excite you because guys like Houck, Mata and Ward aren't projected elite pitchers. Yet if they can be #4/5/6 type pitchers that would be huge for us.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 3, 2020 5:40:15 GMT -5
Even with the 7-1 start, Fangraphs gives the MFY just a 10.4-percent chance of winning the WS. I'm not going to worry about something that has odds that long. I agree with this. MFY are not going to win with that staff This is an expanded playoff. The odds are with the field. Tampa is honestly a better bet than MFY. Betting wise
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 3, 2020 7:39:28 GMT -5
Matt Barnes, another bust.
Why is it so impossible to develop pitching?
I'm rooting for losses, again.
It's crazy how it feels nothing ever goes right with this team, yet they have 4 rings since 2000.
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Post by jdb on Aug 3, 2020 8:25:26 GMT -5
The Benintendi discussion over the weekend got me thinking he might be the best asset to turn into a SP. Outside of Bauer there isn’t a good option on the FA market and we could always sign a Marcell Ozuna type to play LF.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 3, 2020 8:34:41 GMT -5
He didn’t bother me like he did other people. I worry about guys who the team really relies on. I don’t sweat the small stuff. This is Baseball though, not Basketball. The small stuff matters, like it's massive. Getting the best player in the game does nothing for a team if they don't have good depth. Look at the 2019 team it was crazy talented with as many elite players as any team. You didn't have the small stuff to cover injuries like in 2018. There wasn't a Brain Johnson and Vazquez to fill in. Those guys didn't put up huge numbers, yet can make a massive difference if they give you innings and aren't horrible. This teams depth with positional players is going to be very good in 2021. Heck if it was a regular season I would have expected a bunch of guys this year. That's a huge piece when you look back at trading for Nunez and playing him so much. We have a few pitchers, yet not enough. They'll have to make trades or sign 2-4 guys. Yet the margins matter here also. Look at Perez, he's a #6 for me on a true title contender. Not close to an elite guy, yet the difference from him to guys like Weber and Hall is crazy big. A 1-2 bwar pitcher doesn't look that good till you have to watch -2-3 bwar pitchers pitch every five days. Looking at 2021 I see the small stuff as a bigger issue than elite players. You basically think the opposite. The difference from Holt to Nunez is massive in my book. Maybe the guys that are close don't excite you because guys like Houck, Mata and Ward aren't projected elite pitchers. Yet if they can be #4/5/6 type pitchers that would be huge for us. I agree with your overall premise. Filling in the gaps with guys who don't totally suck is big. Having those small improvements will help and I think Bloom will ultimately prove to be good at that. I do think Houck, Mata, and Ward can help, but prove more valuable on a staff that has a true ace or top line starters, and at this point, I really have no idea what Chris Sale and Eduardo Rodriguez come back to be. I see Eovaldi as a mid-rotation starter if he's healthy. I do see Manfred's point. I'm old enough to remember the Sox developing Clemens, Hurst, and Boyd. I mean, duh....you can't expect the next Clemens, but Hurst and Boyd illustrate the point better. Both were top notch starting pitchers. Boyd flamed out after he got hurt and Hurst took a long awhile to develop, but neither were back end starters. The Sox need front end just as much as they need back end. That's why I hope Groome develops or Perales at some point steps forward or that the Red Sox can find one in the draft. Obviously Bloom sees this. This is why he backed off of Graterol. He wanted a front end starting pitching talent. He wasn't interested in back end so he didn't demand any pitching from the Dodgers other than Graterol when he thought he could start. And yes, the dropoff from Holt to Nunez was noticeable the more Nunez played and I suspect it will be likewise for Peraza who in my opinion is a downgrade from Holt. Won't kill them on a crappy team like this one, but would hurt in a close pennant race I suspect. As an aside, I know Nunez was hated around here and I get why, and I have no idea why a smart manager like Alex Cora would play him so damn much, but when all is said and done, I will remember Nunez fondly. His PH 3 run HR in WS Game 1 made me breathe a helluva lot easier and he nearly stole Game 3 for the Red Sox if Kinsler hadn't given it back. And his defense was brutal yet he made the do or die play with the Yankee Stadium savages thirsting for Red Sox blood in the 9th inning of Game 4 ALDS (and yes, that was a helluva stretch by Pearce), plus I do remember the jumpstart he gave the Red Sox stagnant offense in August of 2017 when he gave them two months of high batting average and hard to believe power - so all of that more than makes up for the fact that his OBP was a joke as he'd hack at anything that moved and that his defense was brutally bad at 2b and that he played way more than he should have - it's not like he held Cora at gunpoint to play him, so if I ever meet Nunez one day, I'd thank him for the memories, which I can't say for every former ballplayer the Sox have ever had, some with better stats than him, and I say this knowing damn well how terrible he was once his knee gave out.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 3, 2020 9:48:20 GMT -5
Tanks alot !!
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Post by incandenza on Aug 3, 2020 12:40:34 GMT -5
Buddy, if you can't take joy in the simple pleasures of life, like not having Eduardo Nunez on the team, then I really think you need to re-examine your priorities - think about what really matters. He didn’t bother me like he did other people. I worry about guys who the team really relies on. I don’t sweat the small stuff. Yeah, that was pretty much Dombrowski's approach too.
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Post by manfred on Aug 3, 2020 12:50:01 GMT -5
He didn’t bother me like he did other people. I worry about guys who the team really relies on. I don’t sweat the small stuff. Yeah, that was pretty much Dombrowski's approach too. World Series champion Dombrowski? I guess. I don’t get the hate for him. How do we feel about what he gave up for Pomeranz? Kimbrel? Sale? I mean, even the haul he sent in the last case seems ok — Mocada will probably be what we thought he’d be, and that hurts. Kopech has, er, question marks galore. People can slam DD for the current state of the Sox, but he won, and if you undid those trades (and other moves), they would likely be one WS down with a system of guys who looked better a few years ago. And an All-Star in Moncada. Edit: this is not to mention signing JDM. The Price signing, which I was against, did what it was intended to do.... got a great post-season run from him. The two big mistakes were resigning Eovaldi and Sale’s extension (unless people want to point to Shaw-for-Thornburg as the iceberg this Titanic sank against). Those were not great. True. But they hardly outweigh the bigger picture.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Aug 3, 2020 12:57:48 GMT -5
Yeah, that was pretty much Dombrowski's approach too. World Series champion Dombrowski? I guess. I don’t get the hate for him. How do we feel about what he gave up for Pomeranz? Kimbrel? Sale? I mean, even the haul he sent in the last case seems ok — Mocada will probably be what we thought he’d be, and that hurts. Kopech has, er, question marks galore. People can slam DD for the current state of the Sox, but he won, and if you undid those trades (and other moves), they would likely be one WS down with a system of guys who looked better a few years ago. And an All-Star in Moncada. It's not about the big pieces in the trades, it's about the fact that he was consistently uncreative and inefficient, which drained away resources and cornered the team into a luxury tax nightmare. I don't have any hate for Dombrowski, because 2018 was worth it to me, but I can't really see how you can be so disgusted and angry with the current state of the Sox and not hold it partially against Dombrowski.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 3, 2020 12:59:20 GMT -5
Yeah, that was pretty much Dombrowski's approach too. World Series champion Dombrowski? I guess. I don’t get the hate for him. How do we feel about what he gave up for Pomeranz? Kimbrel? Sale? I mean, even the haul he sent in the last case seems ok — Mocada will probably be what we thought he’d be, and that hurts. Kopech has, er, question marks galore. People can slam DD for the current state of the Sox, but he won, and if you undid those trades (and other moves), they would likely be one WS down with a system of guys who looked better a few years ago. And an All-Star in Moncada. Edit: this is not to mention signing JDM. The Price signing, which I was against, did what it was intended to do.... got a great post-season run from him. The two big mistakes were resigning Eovaldi and Sale’s extension (unless people want to point to Shaw-for-Thornburg as the iceberg this Titanic sank against). Those were not great. True. But they hardly outweigh the bigger picture. I don't think we need to have yet another conversation about Dombrowski's relative strengths and weaknesses as a GM. Suffice it to say, I think he did some things well and some things poorly. Having Nunez appear in 187 games between 2018 and 2019 is indicative of the latter for me.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 3, 2020 13:04:41 GMT -5
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Post by manfred on Aug 3, 2020 13:06:43 GMT -5
World Series champion Dombrowski? I guess. I don’t get the hate for him. How do we feel about what he gave up for Pomeranz? Kimbrel? Sale? I mean, even the haul he sent in the last case seems ok — Mocada will probably be what we thought he’d be, and that hurts. Kopech has, er, question marks galore. People can slam DD for the current state of the Sox, but he won, and if you undid those trades (and other moves), they would likely be one WS down with a system of guys who looked better a few years ago. And an All-Star in Moncada. Edit: this is not to mention signing JDM. The Price signing, which I was against, did what it was intended to do.... got a great post-season run from him. The two big mistakes were resigning Eovaldi and Sale’s extension (unless people want to point to Shaw-for-Thornburg as the iceberg this Titanic sank against). Those were not great. True. But they hardly outweigh the bigger picture. I don't think we need to have yet another conversation about Dombrowski's relative strengths and weaknesses as a GM. Suffice it to say, I think he did some things well and some things poorly. Having Nunez appear in 187 games between 2018 and 2019 is indicative of the latter for me. You brought it up.
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Post by kevfc89 on Aug 3, 2020 13:08:06 GMT -5
World Series champion Dombrowski? I guess. I don’t get the hate for him. How do we feel about what he gave up for Pomeranz? Kimbrel? Sale? I mean, even the haul he sent in the last case seems ok — Mocada will probably be what we thought he’d be, and that hurts. Kopech has, er, question marks galore. People can slam DD for the current state of the Sox, but he won, and if you undid those trades (and other moves), they would likely be one WS down with a system of guys who looked better a few years ago. And an All-Star in Moncada. It's not about the big pieces in the trades, it's about the fact that he was consistently uncreative and inefficient, which drained away resources and cornered the team into a luxury tax nightmare. I don't have any hate for Dombrowski, because 2018 was worth it to me, but I can't really see how you can be so disgusted and angry with the current state of the Sox and not hold it partially against Dombrowski. ^this. better long term planning and strategy would've been appreciated
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 3, 2020 13:10:21 GMT -5
This is Baseball though, not Basketball. The small stuff matters, like it's massive. Getting the best player in the game does nothing for a team if they don't have good depth. Look at the 2019 team it was crazy talented with as many elite players as any team. You didn't have the small stuff to cover injuries like in 2018. There wasn't a Brain Johnson and Vazquez to fill in. Those guys didn't put up huge numbers, yet can make a massive difference if they give you innings and aren't horrible. This teams depth with positional players is going to be very good in 2021. Heck if it was a regular season I would have expected a bunch of guys this year. That's a huge piece when you look back at trading for Nunez and playing him so much. We have a few pitchers, yet not enough. They'll have to make trades or sign 2-4 guys. Yet the margins matter here also. Look at Perez, he's a #6 for me on a true title contender. Not close to an elite guy, yet the difference from him to guys like Weber and Hall is crazy big. A 1-2 bwar pitcher doesn't look that good till you have to watch -2-3 bwar pitchers pitch every five days. Looking at 2021 I see the small stuff as a bigger issue than elite players. You basically think the opposite. The difference from Holt to Nunez is massive in my book. Maybe the guys that are close don't excite you because guys like Houck, Mata and Ward aren't projected elite pitchers. Yet if they can be #4/5/6 type pitchers that would be huge for us. I agree with your overall premise. Filling in the gaps with guys who don't totally suck is big. Having those small improvements will help and I think Bloom will ultimately prove to be good at that. I do think Houck, Mata, and Ward can help, but prove more valuable on a staff that has a true ace or top line starters, and at this point, I really have no idea what Chris Sale and Eduardo Rodriguez come back to be. I see Eovaldi as a mid-rotation starter if he's healthy. I do see Manfred's point. I'm old enough to remember the Sox developing Clemens, Hurst, and Boyd. I mean, duh....you can't expect the next Clemens, but Hurst and Boyd illustrate the point better. Both were top notch starting pitchers. Boyd flamed out after he got hurt and Hurst took a long awhile to develop, but neither were back end starters. The Sox need front end just as much as they need back end. That's why I hope Groome develops or Perales at some point steps forward or that the Red Sox can find one in the draft. Obviously Bloom sees this. This is why he backed off of Graterol. He wanted a front end starting pitching talent. He wasn't interested in back end so he didn't demand any pitching from the Dodgers other than Graterol when he thought he could start. And yes, the dropoff from Holt to Nunez was noticeable the more Nunez played and I suspect it will be likewise for Peraza who in my opinion is a downgrade from Holt. Won't kill them on a crappy team like this one, but would hurt in a close pennant race I suspect. As an aside, I know Nunez was hated around here and I get why, and I have no idea why a smart manager like Alex Cora would play him so damn much, but when all is said and done, I will remember Nunez fondly. His PH 3 run HR in WS Game 1 made me breathe a helluva lot easier and he nearly stole Game 3 for the Red Sox if Kinsler hadn't given it back. And his defense was brutal yet he made the do or die play with the Yankee Stadium savages thirsting for Red Sox blood in the 9th inning of Game 4 ALDS (and yes, that was a helluva stretch by Pearce), plus I do remember the jumpstart he gave the Red Sox stagnant offense in August of 2017 when he gave them two months of high batting average and hard to believe power - so all of that more than makes up for the fact that his OBP was a joke as he'd hack at anything that moved and that his defense was brutally bad at 2b and that he played way more than he should have - it's not like he held Cora at gunpoint to play him, so if I ever meet Nunez one day, I'd thank him for the memories, which I can't say for every former ballplayer the Sox have ever had, some with better stats than him, and I say this knowing damn well how terrible he was once his knee gave out. I understand being worried. Yet I also see it as much more likely that Sale and ERod come back as TOR pitchers than not. TJ surgery is like 80-90% success rate. What ERod had is very common, lots of people get it and don't even know they have it. It's why it takes you a few months to feel 100% from a bad case of the flu. Sure we don't know about Covid long-term, yet he didn't have a crazy bad case either. The outlook is still a full recovery per our GM. We can't just overlook them. In general terms yeah we need to get better at producing starting pitching. Yet four Championship's later with staff's who aces were free agents or guys we traded for mostly. Pedro, Schilling, Beckett, Sale and Price. We can afford to get TOR starters if we produce the needed depth. It's near impossible to sign and trade for the whole rotation and depth though. I also think people are overlooking how dead the free agent market will be. As long as the season goes to the trade deadline we'll be able to spend and could get some great values. Imagine signing Stroman and another solid pitcher to one year deals. Then by mid-season getting Sale back. You could be rolling into the playoffs with Sale, ERod, Stroman, and Eovaldi. If injuries happen it won't kill us if Mata, Houck and Ward can fill in and be depth. We are very good at retooling and still have a bunch of elite pieces. If Bloom is as good as everyone says we'll be fine and this won't be some three year rebuild. I feel that way because we have a bunch of depth right around the corner for the first time in years.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Aug 3, 2020 13:10:52 GMT -5
I have no animosity toward Dombrowski. He was brought to Boston to win and he did, but at a high price.we are seeing the effects of those transactions now, but there should be no surprise about what we are going through now. They needed a GM that would make the moves to strengthen the minor leagues, which DD would not do and Bloom seems to be a good choice. He is hamstrung right now with the reset firmly in sight and hoping we get through the season and receive a high draft pick. All these scenarios are up in the air and the best we can do right now is ride out the season no matter where it takes us and look yearningly to next year.
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Post by manfred on Aug 3, 2020 13:15:52 GMT -5
World Series champion Dombrowski? I guess. I don’t get the hate for him. How do we feel about what he gave up for Pomeranz? Kimbrel? Sale? I mean, even the haul he sent in the last case seems ok — Mocada will probably be what we thought he’d be, and that hurts. Kopech has, er, question marks galore. People can slam DD for the current state of the Sox, but he won, and if you undid those trades (and other moves), they would likely be one WS down with a system of guys who looked better a few years ago. And an All-Star in Moncada. It's not about the big pieces in the trades, it's about the fact that he was consistently uncreative and inefficient, which drained away resources and cornered the team into a luxury tax nightmare. I don't have any hate for Dombrowski, because 2018 was worth it to me, but I can't really see how you can be so disgusted and angry with the current state of the Sox and not hold it partially against Dombrowski. That is fair, though I also don’t “blame” for things that just happen. It is no one’s fault Sale is hurt, for example. There is always a hangover for going all in for a title. In 2018, I think a lot of us were saying we’d be happy to trade a period like this for that year, and we got it. D’accord. What I do “blame” the Sox for, and I said this before, was the Betts/Price trade. Before Covid, I figured selling Price without any pitching was surrender, and I’d rather ride out Betts and risk losing him. After Covid, with the uncertainty about money, I have a hard time believing Mookie couldn’t have been extended for what the Dodgers gave him. And I think I’ve made clear that I don’t think the return is a significant part of the next champion. So... if I “blame” someone, it is more Bloom than Dombrowski. But mostly I view it as a mess that we all asked for 2 years ago, and now the question is what to do. I am in the burn it down camp. Bail on 2020 and 2021, stock up dough, get what prospects you can, do NOT spend huge on 30+ year old FAs this or maybe next off-season, etc.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 3, 2020 14:26:49 GMT -5
I agree with your overall premise. Filling in the gaps with guys who don't totally suck is big. Having those small improvements will help and I think Bloom will ultimately prove to be good at that. I do think Houck, Mata, and Ward can help, but prove more valuable on a staff that has a true ace or top line starters, and at this point, I really have no idea what Chris Sale and Eduardo Rodriguez come back to be. I see Eovaldi as a mid-rotation starter if he's healthy. I do see Manfred's point. I'm old enough to remember the Sox developing Clemens, Hurst, and Boyd. I mean, duh....you can't expect the next Clemens, but Hurst and Boyd illustrate the point better. Both were top notch starting pitchers. Boyd flamed out after he got hurt and Hurst took a long awhile to develop, but neither were back end starters. The Sox need front end just as much as they need back end. That's why I hope Groome develops or Perales at some point steps forward or that the Red Sox can find one in the draft. Obviously Bloom sees this. This is why he backed off of Graterol. He wanted a front end starting pitching talent. He wasn't interested in back end so he didn't demand any pitching from the Dodgers other than Graterol when he thought he could start. And yes, the dropoff from Holt to Nunez was noticeable the more Nunez played and I suspect it will be likewise for Peraza who in my opinion is a downgrade from Holt. Won't kill them on a crappy team like this one, but would hurt in a close pennant race I suspect. As an aside, I know Nunez was hated around here and I get why, and I have no idea why a smart manager like Alex Cora would play him so damn much, but when all is said and done, I will remember Nunez fondly. His PH 3 run HR in WS Game 1 made me breathe a helluva lot easier and he nearly stole Game 3 for the Red Sox if Kinsler hadn't given it back. And his defense was brutal yet he made the do or die play with the Yankee Stadium savages thirsting for Red Sox blood in the 9th inning of Game 4 ALDS (and yes, that was a helluva stretch by Pearce), plus I do remember the jumpstart he gave the Red Sox stagnant offense in August of 2017 when he gave them two months of high batting average and hard to believe power - so all of that more than makes up for the fact that his OBP was a joke as he'd hack at anything that moved and that his defense was brutally bad at 2b and that he played way more than he should have - it's not like he held Cora at gunpoint to play him, so if I ever meet Nunez one day, I'd thank him for the memories, which I can't say for every former ballplayer the Sox have ever had, some with better stats than him, and I say this knowing damn well how terrible he was once his knee gave out. I understand being worried. Yet I also see it as much more likely that Sale and ERod come back as TOR pitchers than not. TJ surgery is like 80-90% success rate. What ERod had is very common, lots of people get it and don't even know they have it. It's why it takes you a few months to feel 100% from a bad case of the flu. Sure we don't know about Covid long-term, yet he didn't have a crazy bad case either. The outlook is still a full recovery per our GM. We can't just overlook them. In general terms yeah we need to get better at producing starting pitching. Yet four Championship's later with staff's who aces were free agents or guys we traded for mostly. Pedro, Schilling, Beckett, Sale and Price. We can afford to get TOR starters if we produce the needed depth. It's near impossible to sign and trade for the whole rotation and depth though. I also think people are overlooking how dead the free agent market will be. As long as the season goes to the trade deadline we'll be able to spend and could get some great values. Imagine signing Stroman and another solid pitcher to one year deals. Then by mid-season getting Sale back. You could be rolling into the playoffs with Sale, ERod, Stroman, and Eovaldi. If injuries happen it won't kill us if Mata, Houck and Ward can fill in and be depth. We are very good at retooling and still have a bunch of elite pieces. If Bloom is as good as everyone says we'll be fine and this won't be some three year rebuild. I feel that way because we have a bunch of depth right around the corner for the first time in years. I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I think it comes down to: how well do you think Chris Sale will pitch when he comes back? Is he the old Chris Sale pitching like the true ace he was before he broke down in August 2018? Or will he be an older Chris Sale who isn't what he once was? If you think guys come back enough you're comfortable to say the former, then the Sox have a true ace every 5th day. If you think he doesn't come back like he once was and is more of a mid to back end starter, then you have a huge difference. You'd have a bunch of back end starters who don't match up with the strong lineups or better pitching staffs in the league. If he's instantly back, then the Red Sox suddenly have an ace again. With E-Rod, I honestly, too have no idea what to expect. I just don't. At this point I just hope he'll be alright and won't suffer any long-term effects. I've always been under the impression that teams SHOULD be able to develop back end starters and setup men. The Red Sox have not been good at even developing back end starters. The last one they developed that impacted them (briefly) was Felix Doubront. I would think Mata should be able to do with Doubront did. I see Houck as Barnes eventual replacement. I don't see much beyond that in the system, other than Song who we're waiting on.
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Post by manfred on Aug 3, 2020 14:36:06 GMT -5
I understand being worried. Yet I also see it as much more likely that Sale and ERod come back as TOR pitchers than not. TJ surgery is like 80-90% success rate. What ERod had is very common, lots of people get it and don't even know they have it. It's why it takes you a few months to feel 100% from a bad case of the flu. Sure we don't know about Covid long-term, yet he didn't have a crazy bad case either. The outlook is still a full recovery per our GM. We can't just overlook them. In general terms yeah we need to get better at producing starting pitching. Yet four Championship's later with staff's who aces were free agents or guys we traded for mostly. Pedro, Schilling, Beckett, Sale and Price. We can afford to get TOR starters if we produce the needed depth. It's near impossible to sign and trade for the whole rotation and depth though. I also think people are overlooking how dead the free agent market will be. As long as the season goes to the trade deadline we'll be able to spend and could get some great values. Imagine signing Stroman and another solid pitcher to one year deals. Then by mid-season getting Sale back. You could be rolling into the playoffs with Sale, ERod, Stroman, and Eovaldi. If injuries happen it won't kill us if Mata, Houck and Ward can fill in and be depth. We are very good at retooling and still have a bunch of elite pieces. If Bloom is as good as everyone says we'll be fine and this won't be some three year rebuild. I feel that way because we have a bunch of depth right around the corner for the first time in years. I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I think it comes down to: how well do you think Chris Sale will pitch when he comes back? Is he the old Chris Sale pitching like the true ace he was before he broke down in August 2018? Or will he be an older Chris Sale who isn't what he once was? If you think guys come back enough you're comfortable to say the former, then the Sox have a true ace every 5th day. If you think he doesn't come back like he once was and is more of a mid to back end starter, then you have a huge difference. You'd have a bunch of back end starters who don't match up with the strong lineups or better pitching staffs in the league. If he's instantly back, then the Red Sox suddenly have an ace again. With E-Rod, I honestly, too have no idea what to expect. I just don't. At this point I just hope he'll be alright and won't suffer any long-term effects. I've always been under the impression that teams SHOULD be able to develop back end starters and setup men. The Red Sox have not been good at even developing back end starters. The last one they developed that impacted them (briefly) was Felix Doubront. I would think Mata should be able to do with Doubront did. I see Houck as Barnes eventual replacement. I don't see much beyond that in the system, other than Song who we're waiting on. I love Sale, but the thing is, even if he comes back 100%, let’s not forget that pre-injury Sale still had issues late in the season. The guy is awesome, but he does seem to wear down over the season. And that was prime Sale. I think there is a good chance he comes back no less able to dominate games, but I also bet he never throws over 175 innings in a season again.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 3, 2020 14:36:33 GMT -5
It's not about the big pieces in the trades, it's about the fact that he was consistently uncreative and inefficient, which drained away resources and cornered the team into a luxury tax nightmare. I don't have any hate for Dombrowski, because 2018 was worth it to me, but I can't really see how you can be so disgusted and angry with the current state of the Sox and not hold it partially against Dombrowski. That is fair, though I also don’t “blame” for things that just happen. It is no one’s fault Sale is hurt, for example. There is always a hangover for going all in for a title. In 2018, I think a lot of us were saying we’d be happy to trade a period like this for that year, and we got it. D’accord. What I do “blame” the Sox for, and I said this before, was the Betts/Price trade. Before Covid, I figured selling Price without any pitching was surrender, and I’d rather ride out Betts and risk losing him. After Covid, with the uncertainty about money, I have a hard time believing Mookie couldn’t have been extended for what the Dodgers gave him. And I think I’ve made clear that I don’t think the return is a significant part of the next champion. So... if I “blame” someone, it is more Bloom than Dombrowski. But mostly I view it as a mess that we all asked for 2 years ago, and now the question is what to do. I am in the burn it down camp. Bail on 2020 and 2021, stock up dough, get what prospects you can, do NOT spend huge on 30+ year old FAs this or maybe next off-season, etc. I'm not sure why Bloom should be blamed. I do agree with your points about Dombrowski and his deals. I really wouldn't undo many of them and without most of them, they don't have the ultimate season. But somewhere the communication between him and the FO in terms of long-term vision failed miserably and while he was good at high end shopping, he didn't stock the system with depth and along the way the failure to develop pitching has become an issue. I look at the Sox now and say, "The next time they're seriously competitive, who from this roster will be on THAT roster? I do think it's probable Verdugo and Downs will be on THAT roster, so I do think they got value. A second guess might be choosing Downs and Wong over Graterol, particularly if he can start, but they didn't think he could and Downs is more of a sure thing... But anyways you have Devers who's a yes, X who is a "hope so" if he doesn't opt out. Beyond that I'd see Benintendi is a "maybe". Sale probably will be but probably more as a supporting player than a leading role. E-Rod is a possibility is they extend him. The rest of the roster, even Vazquez, are unlikely to be on the next Red Sox team that seriously competes.
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Post by manfred on Aug 3, 2020 14:44:41 GMT -5
That is fair, though I also don’t “blame” for things that just happen. It is no one’s fault Sale is hurt, for example. There is always a hangover for going all in for a title. In 2018, I think a lot of us were saying we’d be happy to trade a period like this for that year, and we got it. D’accord. What I do “blame” the Sox for, and I said this before, was the Betts/Price trade. Before Covid, I figured selling Price without any pitching was surrender, and I’d rather ride out Betts and risk losing him. After Covid, with the uncertainty about money, I have a hard time believing Mookie couldn’t have been extended for what the Dodgers gave him. And I think I’ve made clear that I don’t think the return is a significant part of the next champion. So... if I “blame” someone, it is more Bloom than Dombrowski. But mostly I view it as a mess that we all asked for 2 years ago, and now the question is what to do. I am in the burn it down camp. Bail on 2020 and 2021, stock up dough, get what prospects you can, do NOT spend huge on 30+ year old FAs this or maybe next off-season, etc. I'm not sure why Bloom should be blamed. I do agree with your points about Dombrowski and his deals. I really wouldn't undo many of them and without most of them, they don't have the ultimate season. But somewhere the communication between him and the FO in terms of long-term vision failed miserably and while he was good at high end shopping, he didn't stock the system with depth and along the way the failure to develop pitching has become an issue. I look at the Sox now and say, "The next time they're seriously competitive, who from this roster will be on THAT roster? I do think it's probable Verdugo and Downs will be on THAT roster, so I do think they got value. A second guess might be choosing Downs and Wong over Graterol, particularly if he can start, but they didn't think he could and Downs is more of a sure thing... But anyways you have Devers who's a yes, X who is a "hope so" if he doesn't opt out. Beyond that I'd see Benintendi is a "maybe". Sale probably will be but probably more as a supporting player than a leading role. E-Rod is a possibility is they extend him. The rest of the roster, even Vazquez, are unlikely to be on the next Red Sox team that seriously competes. It is very hard for me to call Downs a “probable” when it is no less probable the guy doesn’t even pan out. He is a very young guy who, from all descriptions, has no particularly mind-blowing tools. So all his decent tools have to max out their average to above average potential. That’s my beef with Bloom: I think if Downs and Verdugo are around for the next run, they are mostly passengers. But there won’t be a next run until the star void left by Mookie is filled. That might be an OF slot or 1B but they have too many meh guys in the lineup. Obviously... pitching. Goes without saying.
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Post by jbsox on Aug 3, 2020 16:29:39 GMT -5
The part when AROD said Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Aaron Judge! made me chuckle. Slow down there AROD. Lol
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 4, 2020 7:01:25 GMT -5
10 games into the season and we are already 5 1/2 games out of the expanded playoffs.
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Post by coachmac on Aug 4, 2020 7:40:47 GMT -5
Actually we're 5.5 games behind the Yankees, only 2 out of the 8th place wild card in the expanded playoffs.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 4, 2020 8:32:49 GMT -5
Actually we're 5.5 games behind the Yankees, only 2 out of the 8th place wild card in the expanded playoffs. My bad, wrong column. It says 3.0 behind in the wildcard. MLB.com standings.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 4, 2020 8:56:19 GMT -5
3 games out is equal to 8.1 games out in dog years.
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