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8/31-9/2 Red Sox vs. Braves Series Thread
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 3, 2020 12:09:15 GMT -5
The 1962 Celtics featured 6 Hall of Famers on the same team.
Bob Cousy John Havlicek Tom Heinson KC Jones Sam Jones Bill Russell
For the UMass fans, my first 3 years there featured (as players) Dr. J. (Julius Erving) Rick Patino Al Skinner
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 3, 2020 12:11:00 GMT -5
prediction: Friday will be twice the fun. Hoping for a split against Toronto today. Celtics beat the Raptors, BJs beat the RS. For Friday, let's hope for brooms.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 3, 2020 12:18:57 GMT -5
And I want to make clear: this is not tendentious. I am really just asking in an open-ended way. For example, I cannot think of a FA who passed on Boston explicitly for cultural reasons. No but Tori Hunter, Jim rice, Reggie Smith & David Price have all recently commented on racist treatment by fans. Wasn't Tim Raines somebody who had zero desire to ever sign with the Red Sox? Thought I had read something about it, but cannot remember. I remember Lou Gorman willing to spend extra $ for Kirby Puckett but he decided to go back to Minnesota for less, and then he signed Andre Dawson instead.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 3, 2020 12:27:58 GMT -5
I think there's a lot of legacy stuff that contributes to Boston's poor reputation. The stink of things like the busing mess of the 1970s, the RS being the last player to have a black player, the Jackie Robinson tryout at Fenway, etc. is hard to remove.
That said, I've witnessed two extremely offensive incidents at Fenway in my many visits there.
One was in 2009. My wife and were standing behind the grandstand. I got talking to a kid in his 20s who said he was from Boston and now lived in Atlanta. Being interested in visiting Atlanta, I asked him about the mass transit system there. He gave me an acronym that began with MAR and wisecracked that it stood for "Moving Africans Rapidly." I took my wife's hand and we walked away.
The other had to have been in 2007 or 2008. Dice-K pitched a gem for us. As the departing hoard moved along Jersey Street after the last out, a teenage girl saw an Asian-looking dude and said, "Hey, Dice-K!" The guy reflexively turned his head in her direction, prompting one of her friends to giggle and say, "He looked!"
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 3, 2020 12:29:09 GMT -5
I really don't see organizational at all. I only hear good things about how the team treats it's players.That said, I can't think of any comments by a black athlete just whites but that doesn't mean they don't feel that way. Looking at other sports, Bill Russell was always vocal but pretty much vocal about fans. As far as town reputations go, it took quite a while for Celtic black players to become popular as humans vs white players. The Celtics have an interesting history. They were the first team to draft a black player and the first team to floor an all black lineup. On the other side, they were the last team to floor an all white lineup and they did that several times over several years during the Cowens/Walton years. ADD Thinking about it, I view Jim Rice as having positive views towards the organization. I read Bill Nowlin's book on Tom Yawkey, trying to get a better handle on who or what he was. One of the surprising things that I read was Reggie Smith having positive things to say about him. They apparently had a good relationship. And I think if Reggie felt it wasn't genuine, he would have said so - I'd trust his judgment. I also read about (I'm trying to go from memory here) about Elston Howard feeling like he and his wife were treated well by Yawkey when they were in Boston as well. I don't really know if Yawkey was personlaly racist or not, but there's no defending or excuse for the Red Sox' shameful past. Yawkey's predisposition to letting his drinking buddies run the team (like Pinky Higgins who did so much damage to the organization) cannot be defended. And a number of us are old enough to remember those terrible Elks club passes that were discriminatory that the Red Sox accepted. At the end of the day, the buck stopped with him - it was his club and he didn't do anything to change the culture, and that's why understandably current ownership has tried to be the polar opposites. I think Henry and company have done a much better job and the bigger issue is more the atmosphere than the current ownership.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 3, 2020 12:50:30 GMT -5
Maybe in the off-season Chaim moves Chavis. Why? A few weeks back when he got hot for like a week it looked like you could. Now he either needs to improve or your likely better off just sending him to AAA to work on his issues next year. There's no value right now.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 3, 2020 12:52:01 GMT -5
For me, I haven't been there for a while but I view Massachusetts as being a heavily good old boy network state. Elsewhere, I expressed that thought and got a response that I was wrong, things had changed a lot. I challenged them to find a single small city or town with a diversified elected government. They couldn't find any. Every town, almost all Irish, French, Italian or English. Maybe things are different but I don't see it.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 3, 2020 12:55:59 GMT -5
I really don't see organizational at all. I only hear good things about how the team treats it's players.That said, I can't think of any comments by a black athlete just whites but that doesn't mean they don't feel that way. Looking at other sports, Bill Russell was always vocal but pretty much vocal about fans. As far as town reputations go, it took quite a while for Celtic black players to become popular as humans vs white players. The Celtics have an interesting history. They were the first team to draft a black player and the first team to floor an all black lineup. On the other side, they were the last team to floor an all white lineup and they did that several times over several years during the Cowens/Walton years. ADD Thinking about it, I view Jim Rice as having positive views towards the organization. I read Bill Nowlin's book on Tom Yawkey, trying to get a better handle on who or what he was. One of the surprising things that I read was Reggie Smith having positive things to say about him. They apparently had a good relationship. And I think if Reggie felt it wasn't genuine, he would have said so - I'd trust his judgment. I also read about (I'm trying to go from memory here) about Elston Howard feeling like he and his wife were treated well by Yawkey when they were in Boston as well. I don't really know if Yawkey was personlaly racist or not, but there's no defending or excuse for the Red Sox' shameful past. Yawkey's predisposition to letting his drinking buddies run the team (like Pinky Higgins who did so much damage to the organization) cannot be defended. And a number of us are old enough to remember those terrible Elks club passes that were discriminatory that the Red Sox accepted. At the end of the day, the buck stopped with him - it was his club and he didn't do anything to change the culture, and that's why understandably current ownership has tried to be the polar opposites. I think Henry and company have done a much better job and the bigger issue is more the atmosphere than the current ownership. Nowlin's book is a gem and a must-read for every RS fan. I recall it quoted Reggie Smith recounting a conversation with Yawkey from, I think 1967, when Reggie was a rookie. According to Reggie, Yawkey was warm and asked him not to read anything into the RS being the last team to integrate. He told Reggie he was embarrassed by it and that it was a reflection of the times when discrimination in BB was so blatant and accepted. My big-picture takeaway from the book was that Yawkey was an incredibly decent man who never said no to a charity and gave away zillions. But on the other hand, he was a bad owner who hired drunks and bigots. I think his loyalty to some of these dolts got the best of him. He should not be in the HOF. His teams didn't win a WS and he presided over an institutionally racist organization. But I think it's going way too far to characterize him as a racist and bad person.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 3, 2020 13:37:29 GMT -5
I read Bill Nowlin's book on Tom Yawkey, trying to get a better handle on who or what he was. One of the surprising things that I read was Reggie Smith having positive things to say about him. They apparently had a good relationship. And I think if Reggie felt it wasn't genuine, he would have said so - I'd trust his judgment. I also read about (I'm trying to go from memory here) about Elston Howard feeling like he and his wife were treated well by Yawkey when they were in Boston as well. I don't really know if Yawkey was personlaly racist or not, but there's no defending or excuse for the Red Sox' shameful past. Yawkey's predisposition to letting his drinking buddies run the team (like Pinky Higgins who did so much damage to the organization) cannot be defended. And a number of us are old enough to remember those terrible Elks club passes that were discriminatory that the Red Sox accepted. At the end of the day, the buck stopped with him - it was his club and he didn't do anything to change the culture, and that's why understandably current ownership has tried to be the polar opposites. I think Henry and company have done a much better job and the bigger issue is more the atmosphere than the current ownership. Nowlin's book is a gem and a must-read for every RS fan. I recall it quoted Reggie Smith recounting a conversation with Yawkey from, I think 1967, when Reggie was a rookie. According to Reggie, Yawkey was warm and asked him not to read anything into the RS being the last team to integrate. He told Reggie he was embarrassed by it and that it was a reflection of the times when discrimination in BB was so blatant and accepted. My big-picture takeaway from the book was that Yawkey was an incredibly decent man who never said no to a charity and gave away zillions. But on the other hand, he was a bad owner who hired drunks and bigots. I think his loyalty to some of these dolts got the best of him. He should not be in the HOF. His teams didn't win a WS and he presided over an institutionally racist organization. But I think it's going way too far to characterize him as a racist and bad person. Thanks for recalling the details. I recall out of the 400 pages or so of the book it was the Reggie Smith comments that resonated the most for me. I think your summation of what you got out of the book regarding the portrait of Yawkey is what I got as well.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 3, 2020 13:45:45 GMT -5
I read Bill Nowlin's book on Tom Yawkey, trying to get a better handle on who or what he was. One of the surprising things that I read was Reggie Smith having positive things to say about him. They apparently had a good relationship. And I think if Reggie felt it wasn't genuine, he would have said so - I'd trust his judgment. I also read about (I'm trying to go from memory here) about Elston Howard feeling like he and his wife were treated well by Yawkey when they were in Boston as well. I don't really know if Yawkey was personlaly racist or not, but there's no defending or excuse for the Red Sox' shameful past. Yawkey's predisposition to letting his drinking buddies run the team (like Pinky Higgins who did so much damage to the organization) cannot be defended. And a number of us are old enough to remember those terrible Elks club passes that were discriminatory that the Red Sox accepted. At the end of the day, the buck stopped with him - it was his club and he didn't do anything to change the culture, and that's why understandably current ownership has tried to be the polar opposites. I think Henry and company have done a much better job and the bigger issue is more the atmosphere than the current ownership. Nowlin's book is a gem and a must-read for every RS fan. I recall it quoted Reggie Smith recounting a conversation with Yawkey from, I think 1967, when Reggie was a rookie. According to Reggie, Yawkey was warm and asked him not to read anything into the RS being the last team to integrate. He told Reggie he was embarrassed by it and that it was a reflection of the times when discrimination in BB was so blatant and accepted. My big-picture takeaway from the book was that Yawkey was an incredibly decent man who never said no to a charity and gave away zillions. But on the other hand, he was a bad owner who hired drunks and bigots. I think his loyalty to some of these dolts got the best of him. He should not be in the HOF. His teams didn't win a WS and he presided over an institutionally racist organization. But I think it's going way too far to characterize him as a racist and bad person. One thing I recall was his drinking which became an issue. He drunkenly called Billy Evans who was their farm director (and a good one) and fired him. Evans said if he didn't answer the phone, he still would have had his job because Yawkey would have sobered up and changed his mind and kept him. His drinking was really bad in the 50s and he spent the first half of the 60s drying out if I recall what I read correctly. He was kind of an absentee owner for a large part of the 50s and early 60s. I think he also sensed the distance between him and players as he aged. When he bought the team he was the players' age and he pal-ed around with them. But as he got older that was no longer the case so it created some distance. Eventually when he dried out he became a father figure type for guys like Yaz and Scott and others, much to the chagrin of Dick Williams who saw him as a frontrunner who only cared when the team was good. Then again, not unlike many fans, his interest was rekindled when 1967 happened. He had been threatening to move the Red Sox our of Boston, or at the very least get rid of Fenway. After 1967, as the Sox became winners and fans suddenly started coming out to the ballpark (imagine that!), that talk ceased. I think I read somewhere that after the Sox polished off the A's in 1975 Reggie Jackson and others (Rudi and Bando I think) were openly campaigning to come to Boston and get away from Charlie O. Finley.
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