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Patriots 2020 season thread
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 29, 2020 10:38:09 GMT -5
By the way, JC Jackson was exposed last night and honestly he is every time he has to play the role as a number 1 corner. He is NOT a number 1 shutdown corner. He’s a great number 2 and a guy you want in that role. There’s a difference though. Maybe he gets there but he’s not there now and hopefully the league saw that so we don’t need to pay him a ridiculous amount of money to keep him. Gilmore wasn't a #1 shutdown corner when we signed him either. #1 WR in yards and receptions entering the game and our D got zero sacks. On the flip side Jackson did just fine in the first match-up. No CB can be a shutdown guy if your line can't make plays and get sacks. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 29, 2020 12:41:32 GMT -5
So many people make excuses for him it’s impossible to argue. If you argue against it then you don’t know what you’re watching and you’re being nit picky pointing out a couple bad throws that every QB has.... I’d like to add to your list... what about... Staring down receiver routs so corners can jump them Not being able to throw receivers open and/or throwing late so there’s either no reception or no YAC possibility. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 29, 2020 13:01:36 GMT -5
.this is the best place for a tiebreaker chart Work in progress | Wildcard tiebreakers | Miami | Cleve | Balt | Tenn | Indy | | Miami | --- | MIA
conf | MIA
conf | TENN
common | MIA
conf | | Cleve | MIA
conf | --- | BALT
h2h | CLEVE
h2h | CLEVE
h2h | | Balt | MIA
conf | BALT
h2h | --- | TENN
h2h | BALT
h2h | | Tenn | TENN
common | CLEVE
h2h | TENN
h2h | --- | TENN
div | | Indy | MIA
conf | CLEVE
h2h | BALT
h2h | TENN
div | --- |
UPDATED SUNDAY 630PM. Following Ravens victory. Also, Tenn can only tie Miami at 10-6. 11 wins gives Tenn the division. Updated after TENN loss. 11 pm Sun. The only tie that's not straight forward clear: Miami 10-6. Conf is 7-5 Balt 11-5 Cleve 10-6. Conf is 6-6 Indy 11-5 Tenn 10-6 Conf is 7-5 Miami, CLE, Tenn fighting for last 2 wildcards. -none of three have head-to-head sweep -mia, Tenn tied Conf. Dropping Cleve -next tiebreaker is Common games. Tenn has it over Miami.
Tenn 4-1 vs Miami 2-3. Tenn becomes 6 seed.
Miami vs Cleve now for 7 seed. Two-way tie.
Goes to Miami based on Conf record. CLE is out of playoffs
Baltimore, Tennessee, Cleveland and Miami control their destinies... if they win they are in - and Indy gets bumped. Assuming Indy wins (Jacksonville) and the other 4 all lost then Cleveland would miss the playoffs |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 29, 2020 13:12:58 GMT -5
By the way, JC Jackson was exposed last night and honestly he is every time he has to play the role as a number 1 corner. He is NOT a number 1 shutdown corner. He’s a great number 2 and a guy you want in that role. There’s a difference though. Maybe he gets there but he’s not there now and hopefully the league saw that so we don’t need to pay him a ridiculous amount of money to keep him. Gilmore wasn't a #1 shutdown corner when we signed him either. #1 WR in yards and receptions entering the game and our D got zero sacks. On the flip side Jackson did just fine in the first match-up. No CB can be a shutdown guy if your line can't make plays and get sacks. All true (well maybe not the Gilmore piece - he wasn’t what he is now tho) and he could turn into that guy, but he’s not yet.. he’s still too much of a gambler. |
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Dec 29, 2020 13:42:48 GMT -5
The only tie that's not straight forward clear: Miami 10-6. Conf is 7-5 Balt 11-5 Cleve 10-6. Conf is 6-6 Indy 11-5 Tenn 10-6 Conf is 7-5 Miami, CLE, Tenn fighting for last 2 wildcards. -none of three have head-to-head sweep -mia, Tenn tied Conf. Dropping Cleve -next tiebreaker is Common games. Tenn has it over Miami.
Tenn 4-1 vs Miami 2-3. Tenn becomes 6 seed.
Miami vs Cleve now for 7 seed. Two-way tie.
Goes to Miami based on Conf record. CLE is out of playoffs
Baltimore, Tennessee, Cleveland and Miami control their destinies... if they win they are in - and Indy gets bumped. Assuming Indy wins (Jacksonville) and the other 4 all lost then Cleveland would miss the playoffs True. If all win except Tenn & CLE, Tenn is out. CLE is #7. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 29, 2020 13:55:56 GMT -5
Gilmore wasn't a #1 shutdown corner when we signed him either. #1 WR in yards and receptions entering the game and our D got zero sacks. On the flip side Jackson did just fine in the first match-up. No CB can be a shutdown guy if your line can't make plays and get sacks. All true (well maybe not the Gilmore piece - he wasn’t what he is now tho) and he could turn into that guy, but he’s not yet.. he’s still too much of a gambler. I will admit I didn't watch a lot of that game, especially the second half. I can't stand it when my teams suck, I want to throw the remote at the TV. What exactly happened? His advanced rating are good, looks updated as it says 15 games. His PFF grade is higher than Gilmore's this year. Gilmore's numbers are way up over last year and he's missed a bunch of key games against elite WRs. Then add in Jackson's interceptions, which are huge. Gilmore took five years to make a pro bowl, year 7/8 to make all pro, Jackson is in year three and has three darn good years of advanced stats. QBs have a much lower rating against him this year than Gilmore. It's gone up from the crazy low first two years, yet it's still only 58 QB rating. Gilmore has basically only had one 2019 year, let's not set that as the #1 CB bar. 2018 Gilmore gave up 5 TDs. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 29, 2020 14:18:16 GMT -5
So many people make excuses for him it’s impossible to argue. If you argue against it then you don’t know what you’re watching and you’re being nit picky pointing out a couple bad throws that every QB has.... I’d like to add to your list... what about... Staring down receiver routs so corners can jump them Not being able to throw receivers open and/or throwing late so there’s either no reception or no YAC possibility. It was one thing beginning of the year, you could overlook things. He just needs more time to adjust and learn the offense, the players and what they want. Yet there's been no getting better, if anything he's getting worse. He literally looks lost, his elite physical gifts are gone and he's not a polished QB. I admire how hard he works, he just doesn't get it. He doesn't have an advanced understanding of being a QB. He doesn't do the little things and he no longer has a rocket for an arm to make up for those issues. I love Bill, yet I don't know what this is. I get not wanting to criticize your players, yet saying it's not Newton is basically saying it's everyone else and I don't see it. Newton is basically only good throwing deep into the middle of the field. He sucks throwing short, his sideline and timing skills are non existent, it's just bad. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 29, 2020 14:33:00 GMT -5
All true (well maybe not the Gilmore piece - he wasn’t what he is now tho) and he could turn into that guy, but he’s not yet.. he’s still too much of a gambler. I will admit I didn't watch a lot of that game, especially the second half. I can't stand it when my teams suck, I want to throw the remote at the TV. What exactly happened? His advanced rating are good, looks updated as it says 15 games. His PFF grade is higher than Gilmore's this year. Gilmore's numbers are way up over last year and he's missed a bunch of key games against elite WRs. Then add in Jackson's interceptions, which are huge. Gilmore took five years to make a pro bowl, year 7/8 to make all pro, Jackson is in year three and has three darn good years of advanced stats. QBs have a much lower rating against him this year than Gilmore. It's gone up from the crazy low first two years, yet it's still only 58 QB rating. Gilmore has basically only had one 2019 year, let's not set that as the #1 CB bar. 2018 Gilmore gave up 5 TDs. I wasn’t trying to shit on Jackson - just saying we need to pump the breaks a little. Love the player |
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Post by cdj on Dec 30, 2020 1:54:37 GMT -5
I watched it, It was awful
Stidham is worse than Newton like the coaching staff has been more or less telling us. So yeah we need an entirely new QB room
Go get PJ Walker and lets XFL this up
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 30, 2020 8:52:22 GMT -5
So many people make excuses for him it’s impossible to argue. If you argue against it then you don’t know what you’re watching and you’re being nit picky pointing out a couple bad throws that every QB has.... I’d like to add to your list... what about... Staring down receiver routs so corners can jump them Not being able to throw receivers open and/or throwing late so there’s either no reception or no YAC possibility. To further the stare down comment, his release is slow giving the DB some extra time also. So completely hard to watch. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 11:40:41 GMT -5
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Dec 30, 2020 12:31:54 GMT -5
JC is a great #2 who obviously isn't up for guarding a top-notch route runner like Diggs one-on-one. A few years ago when they had good but not great CBs, the Pats consistently doubled the #1 receiver with Logan Ryan and help, and then put Butler on the #2. It was effective though less flexible. Jackson would fit well in that kind of role, but he's not there as an island. I hope they keep Gilmore because he does really open up that defensive flexibility so much. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 14:50:09 GMT -5
JC is a great #2 who obviously isn't up for guarding a top-notch route runner like Diggs one-on-one. A few years ago when they had good but not great CBs, the Pats consistently doubled the #1 receiver with Logan Ryan and help, and then put Butler on the #2. It was effective though less flexible. Jackson would fit well in that kind of role, but he's not there as an island. I hope they keep Gilmore because he does really open up that defensive flexibility so much. I agree, I hope they keep Gilmore thru this contract. Hopefully, he doesn’t hold out. JC is still only a 3rd year guy so he can keep getting better like UMass pointed out how Gilmore did. Gilmore only has a couple more season of being able to be they kind of player too - Father Time is knocking. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 14:51:11 GMT -5
Dalvin Cook is out this weekend... not ideal for Pats.
Chiefs are resting people which is good
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 30, 2020 16:32:18 GMT -5
I watched it, It was awful Stidham is worse than Newton like the coaching staff has been more or less telling us. So yeah we need an entirely new QB room Go get PJ Walker and lets XFL this up When have they said that? They've said Newton gave them the best chance to win since day one, which compared to a QB who hasn't started a game makes sense. Now Bill hasn't budged on that all year, he has a history of doing things like that. Makes up his mind on a player and that doesn't change for a full season, see Harris. We did this last year, Michel wasn't very good, Harris didn't play so he must not being any good. Yet that wasn't true. This might be they don't like Stidham, this might be some loyalty type thing to Newton or this could also be they still like Stidham and don't want to crush his confidence in a year with a crazy short camp, no preseason games, no team scrimmages to get him ready and he was injured missing a good chunk of the camp. That like with Harris they will wait to next year to actually give him a chance. www.radio.com/weei/sports/patriots/james-white-jarrett-stidham-will-be-great-when-given-chanceThat's the type of thing you want to hear about a young QB from his teammates. A team captain stepping up to support a player when so many are trying to read between the lines about what is actually happening. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 30, 2020 17:05:43 GMT -5
I'm not sure what the point of this really is. Gilmore has missed four games, two of them against the Bills and Diggs. The guy leading the league in receptions and yards, so yeah he's darn good. Diggs accounts for like a third of the yardage Jackson has allowed all year. Most of it happening in a game where we got no sacks and the Bills QB had plenty of time to pick a part our D. How good your DBs are is directly related to his good your DL is. Gilmore had one of the best defensive seasons for a CB ever last year and a big part of that was our DL getting tons of pressure every game.
Gilmore is better currently than Jackson, yet I truly believe Jackson has been better than Gilmore was at his age. I only have three years of advanced stats, so I can't back that up. Yet they are very good and Gilmore has the worst advanced stats he's had in three years which backs up our DL is currently a big issue.
Gilmore developed into the player he is, he gave up five TDs in 2018 playing with a much more talented team and was an all pro in the process. You certainly would love to keep Gilmore next year, him and Jackson are likely the NFL best pair of CBs. Yet if they trade him, I have zero issues with Jackson being our #1 CB. That's not going to be a huge issue, we have much bigger needs. I worry much more about Jonathan Jones and how QBs have picked on him for years than Jackson because of a few games against Diggs.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 18:20:26 GMT -5
What's a good or average yds/tgt number? I assume 9.1 is bad, but I couldn't find any stats for reference. Honestly, no clue |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 30, 2020 18:22:51 GMT -5
I'm not sure what the point of this really is. Gilmore has missed four games, two of them against the Bills and Diggs. The guy leading the league in receptions and yards, so yeah he's darn good. Diggs accounts for like a third of the yardage Jackson has allowed all year. Most of it happening in a game where we got no sacks and the Bills QB had plenty of time to pick a part our D. How good your DBs are is directly related to his good your DL is. Gilmore had one of the best defensive seasons for a CB ever last year and a big part of that was our DL getting tons of pressure every game. Gilmore is better currently than Jackson, yet I truly believe Jackson has been better than Gilmore was at his age. I only have three years of advanced stats, so I can't back that up. Yet they are very good and Gilmore has the worst advanced stats he's had in three years which backs up our DL is currently a big issue. Gilmore developed into the player he is, he gave up five TDs in 2018 playing with a much more talented team and was an all pro in the process. You certainly would love to keep Gilmore next year, him and Jackson are likely the NFL best pair of CBs. Yet if they trade him, I have zero issues with Jackson being our #1 CB. That's not going to be a huge issue, we have much bigger needs. I worry much more about Jonathan Jones and how QBs have picked on him for years than Jackson because of a few games against Diggs. The point was, I came across it and it was something we recently discussed so I shared. Do with it what you please. I’ve been clear I really like Jackson so I’m not going to go down a rabbit hole with stuff. You may be comfortable with him as a number 1; I wouldn’t be yet but I also wouldn’t think it was the worst thing in the world - he will likely get better. I mean he’s not going to be Gilmore but very few if any are. |
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Post by cdj on Dec 30, 2020 20:58:38 GMT -5
When have they said that? They've said Newton gave them the best chance to win since day one, which compared to a QB who hasn't started a game makes sense. Now Bill hasn't budged on that all year, he has a history of doing things like that. Makes up his mind on a player and that doesn't change for a full season, see Harris. We did this last year, Michel wasn't very good, Harris didn't play so he must not being any good. Yet that wasn't true. This might be they don't like Stidham, this might be some loyalty type thing to Newton or this could also be they still like Stidham and don't want to crush his confidence in a year with a crazy short camp, no preseason games, no team scrimmages to get him ready and he was injured missing a good chunk of the camp. That like with Harris they will wait to next year to actually give him a chance. www.radio.com/weei/sports/patriots/james-white-jarrett-stidham-will-be-great-when-given-chanceThat's the type of thing you want to hear about a young QB from his teammates. A team captain stepping up to support a player when so many are trying to read between the lines about what is actually happening. I can buy into the idea of the team trying to protect Stidham. The Rams and Bills are tough defenses to break into the league against. Not sure what Bill would be saving him from against the Jets though. Maybe you're right and it's just Bill sticking to his guns. If he’s not starting this week then the only explanation is that he sucks (which the eye test has been confirming whenever he’s put into a game). He throws a more catchable ball when it’s delivered in a good spot (not a frequent occurrence) but otherwise he is late and inaccurate, just like the guy currently back there. Except at least Newton is good in short yardage. |
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Post by beasleyrockah on Dec 31, 2020 0:11:25 GMT -5
My guess is Bill doesn't want to hand Stidham an opportunity to start until he's earned it (in Bill's view, of course). When Cam signed most expected he'd start, but Stidham still had a real opportunity too. Not only did Cam win the job, but Hoyer won the backup job, and Stidham didn't really "earn it" back as much as Hoyer just epically melted down and gave it back. Multiple Pats beat guys said the Patriots were disappointed with the way Stidham competed for the job this camp.
For the sake of discussion, pretend Bill knows he's ready to move on from Cam this winter. It would seem obvious to turn the page now and get an extended look at Stidham - unless Cam is notably outworking him inside the facility. Stidham should be hungry as the backup, playing time is the ultimate motivator. I'm not trying to suggest he's Ryan Mallett or a complete loss cause who doesn't compete at all, I'm sure there's gray area there. Ultimately, it just feels like the decision to stick with Cam even after being eliminated is more about Stidham as an alternative than blind loyalty to Cam. If this was 01 Brady or 2016-2017 Jimmy G, he'd have made the switch, right? There are limits to loyalty, and Stidham likely just hasn't done "enough" to get even the temporary promotion.
The team is likely to add a veteran QB to at least compete for the job if Cam is gone, and it's possible they can land a QB who will be the clear day 1 starter. Also, if value and fit line up, there's a great chance they'll draft a guy too. Depending on the level of those investments, Stidham could be in a tough spot moving forward. He needs a big camp next year.
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Post by texs31 on Dec 31, 2020 10:09:40 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 31, 2020 10:58:26 GMT -5
My guess is Bill doesn't want to hand Stidham an opportunity to start until he's earned it (in Bill's view, of course). When Cam signed most expected he'd start, but Stidham still had a real opportunity too. Not only did Cam win the job, but Hoyer won the backup job, and Stidham didn't really "earn it" back as much as Hoyer just epically melted down and gave it back. Multiple Pats beat guys said the Patriots were disappointed with the way Stidham competed for the job this camp. For the sake of discussion, pretend Bill knows he's ready to move on from Cam this winter. It would seem obvious to turn the page now and get an extended look at Stidham - unless Cam is notably outworking him inside the facility. Stidham should be hungry as the backup, playing time is the ultimate motivator. I'm not trying to suggest he's Ryan Mallett or a complete loss cause who doesn't compete at all, I'm sure there's gray area there. Ultimately, it just feels like the decision to stick with Cam even after being eliminated is more about Stidham as an alternative than blind loyalty to Cam. If this was 01 Brady or 2016-2017 Jimmy G, he'd have made the switch, right? There are limits to loyalty, and Stidham likely just hasn't done "enough" to get even the temporary promotion. The team is likely to add a veteran QB to at least compete for the job if Cam is gone, and it's possible they can land a QB who will be the clear day 1 starter. Also, if value and fit line up, there's a great chance they'll draft a guy too. Depending on the level of those investments, Stidham could be in a tough spot moving forward. He needs a big camp next year. I would have an easier time buying this if it weren't for the fact that Stidham was the presumed starter until mid July. Not saying it's wrong, just have trouble buying into the idea that Stidham was all around good enough in July but isn't now. Cam has said all the right things and his attitude has been great this year, but his play doesn't justify him standing in the way of anyone's development. Presumed starter based on assumptions by fans and media. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 31, 2020 11:31:11 GMT -5
This whole Stidham thing isn't rational. Whatever is going on isn't based on rational thought. That seems very clear, every team besides the Patriots would have played the young guy last game the minute you were eliminated given Newton's performance.
What's funny is going back and reading Bill in regards to Cassel. How when he actually started, was the starter for a full week, how it changed Bill's opinion of him. Bill basically admits it wasn't till that point he believed he was a true NFL starter and it was things you only got to see by him being the starter. A leadership role a backup can't have, inserting plays he likes and getting rid of ones he doesn't, taking control of the offense in a way he couldn't as a backup.
So your back to loyalty, Newton taking a small deal during a pandemic, giving 100%. Newton talking about getting up at 4am. Bill feeling he owes Newton and his hard work deserves he plays and gets his bonus money.
Or maybe Bill holds a grudge because Stidham got injured during camp and the QB competition was basically over in a few days because of that. There were rumblings of people being upset, yet also reports it was a legit injury that he went to the hospital for. So I didn't pay much attention to it. Yet Bill has a long history of holding these crazy grudges over little things. That former Notre Dame running back years ago that went off for 200 plus yards only to get released a few weeks later because he overslept one day when his phone died. Harris last year because he wasn't ready during camp was in the doghouse all year.
You can't overlook how much they liked him, how if not for Newton signing for a million Stidham is your QB. Bill isn't crazy, he wasn't going to go with Stidham if he truly thought he sucked. So something happened and I don't think Stidham just became bad with no upside. I can buy the he's in the doghouse for some stupid reason. I don't buy Stidham isn't a hard worker either, that goes against most reports. I don't see a guy like James White talking up Stidham if he's not a hard worker. You don't pick up the Patriots offense quickly without working crazy hard.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Dec 31, 2020 11:59:14 GMT -5
I would have an easier time buying this if it weren't for the fact that Stidham was the presumed starter until mid July. Not saying it's wrong, just have trouble buying into the idea that Stidham was all around good enough in July but isn't now. Cam has said all the right things and his attitude has been great this year, but his play doesn't justify him standing in the way of anyone's development. I'm not sure why mid-July matters to be honest, you don't play games then, and we have evidence since then that suggests otherwise. To compare it to baseball, I don't view the current hole in the Red Sox CF as evidence that the Red Sox are high on Verdugo as the every day CF, he's just the best option currently as the roster building phase is ongoing. Pretend the Patriots did believe Stidham was good enough to be the starter in July, and only signed Cam because the value was too good. What happened after that checkpoint? Hoyer won the backup job. Hoyer didn't become a new guy during camp, and Stidham was able to beat him out the year before as a rookie. Either Stidham regressed on the field, which is bad, or he wasn't carrying himself the right way and Bill wanted to send a message, which is also bad. For the record, I'm not arguing that Cam is in his way, I'm arguing the opposite - Stidham is in his own way. I'm leaning toward believing Stidham's own lack of development is the problem for Bill, rather than belief/loyalty to Cam. Fans think Stidham should get the job by default because of Cam's struggles, but it feels like Cam is only keeping the job by default because Stidham and Hoyer are just lesser options. I'd prefer to watch Stidham against the Jets fwiw, but I do think Stidham has the power to earn the job but simply hasn't done enough (again, in Bill's opinion). I don't believe this is a situation where Cam would always win out regardless of the other options, if Jalen Hurts was the backup instead of Stidham I'd guess we'd be seeing a lot of Hurts for example. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 31, 2020 12:04:31 GMT -5
This whole Stidham thing isn't rational. Whatever is going on isn't based on rational thought. That seems very clear, every team besides the Patriots would have played the young guy last game the minute you were eliminated given Newton's performance. What's funny is going back and reading Bill in regards to Cassel. How when he actually started, was the starter for a full week, how it changed Bill's opinion of him. Bill basically admits it wasn't till that point he believed he was a true NFL starter and it was things you only got to see by him being the starter. A leadership role a backup can't have, inserting plays he likes and getting rid of ones he doesn't, taking control of the offense in a way he couldn't as a backup. So your back to loyalty, Newton taking a small deal during a pandemic, giving 100%. Newton talking about getting up at 4am. Bill feeling he owes Newton and his hard work deserves he plays and gets his bonus money. Or maybe Bill holds a grudge because Stidham got injured during camp and the QB competition was basically over in a few days because of that. There were rumblings of people being upset, yet also reports it was a legit injury that he went to the hospital for. So I didn't pay much attention to it. Yet Bill has a long history of holding these crazy grudges over little things. That former Notre Dame running back years ago that went off for 200 plus yards only to get released a few weeks later because he overslept one day when his phone died. Harris last year because he wasn't ready during camp was in the doghouse all year. You can't overlook how much they liked him, how if not for Newton signing for a million Stidham is your QB. Bill isn't crazy, he wasn't going to go with Stidham if he truly thought he sucked. So something happened and I don't think Stidham just became bad with no upside. I can buy the he's in the doghouse for some stupid reason. I don't buy Stidham isn't a hard worker either, that goes against most reports. I don't see a guy like James White talking up Stidham if he's not a hard worker. You don't pick up the Patriots offense quickly without working crazy hard. The only part I disagree with is your first sentence. It’s rational, we just don’t know Bills rationale. We also may not agree with whatever it is, but it most certainly is rational. |
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