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Red Sox Acquire Adalberto Mondesi and PTBNL for Josh Taylor
cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,976
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Post by cdj on Jan 24, 2023 17:31:14 GMT -5
We really can’t underestimate how huge that Kikè extension was for our team. His flexibility allows us to go in many different directions.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 24, 2023 17:31:58 GMT -5
Orioles made a similar pick-up in Mateo and it worked out well for them It's a very good pickup, but they need a Plan B. Mondesi is a great player, but he's made of glass. Think about him like James Paxton. Paxton isn't a bad pickup, but if you're relying on him to be the 3rd starter with no other guy on the wings, you're boned.
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Post by dirtdog on Jan 24, 2023 17:32:05 GMT -5
Still think we are at least a bat short. As far as this move, it is better than a year of Kiké at SS, never warmed up to that idea. It would be better if we got the 2018 and 2019 version of Mondesi though. He definitely hasnt been an iron man at any point.
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Post by julyanmorley on Jan 24, 2023 17:33:26 GMT -5
We now have 3 PTBNLs coming. This one, along with the Seabold and Hoy Park DFA trades. These are like 7th-round draft picks in the NFL. They are almost always meaningless. Almost. Look, you can't make this post in a thread about Josh Taylor.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 24, 2023 17:34:27 GMT -5
Orioles made a similar pick-up in Mateo and it worked out well for them It's a very good pickup, but they need a Plan B. Mondesi is a great player, but he's made of glass. Think about him like James Paxton. Paxton isn't a bad pickup, but if you're relying on him to be the 3rd starter with no other guy on the wings, you're boned. But they're not. They already have Arroyo/Mondesi/Kiké/Duvall to fill three positions. If/when Story comes back they have 5 guys for those three positions. Plus Goodrum as a decent slightly-better-than-replacement-level option and Valdez for depth.
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Post by maxwellsdemon on Jan 24, 2023 17:53:42 GMT -5
We really canât underestimate how huge that Kikè extension was for our team. His flexibility allows us to go in many different directions. I really think that this flexibility is part of the Rays approach that Bloom has brought. Andwith lick the Sox will have a clone joining them late in the year, Ceddanne Rafaela. Mondesi does for the infield what Duvall does for the OF and Kiké/Rafeala do the premier middle of the field. That may actually work very well for the 162 if the pitching holds up, whether they'd have the horses to go far in the post season is another question.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jan 24, 2023 17:54:47 GMT -5
Still think we are at least a bat short. As far as this move, it is better than a year of Kiké at SS, never warmed up to that idea. It would be better if we got the 2018 and 2019 version of Mondesi though. He definitely hasnt been an iron man at any point. He was rather solid in 2020 as well. 1.4fWAR in 59 games during the shortened covid year. He's a solid player. I think he's got a good shot to get 2 fWAR or so if he can manage to stay on the field for 100 games or so. 2021 and 2022 were washouts but he was off to a good start in 2021 and never got going last year as he tore his acl after 15 games.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 24, 2023 18:45:08 GMT -5
I think I'm probably higher than Josh Taylor on this board than anybody else. I thought he pitched quite well in 2019 and 2021, was useful, and I did have him in my circle of trust as far as relievers go during those years. He even had stretches where he strung together a bunch of zeroes in his relief outings.
That said, I have no idea how healthy he is. I thought I had heard that his velocity was way down. If his velocity doesn't return or he doesn't get his stuff back, then yeah, highly expendable. Otherwise I think he's a useful pitcher that could have helped them. I guess Martin will get the late inning lefty outs along with the righties he can get out as well. I still think a late inning lefty would help them but don't see them getting one.
As far as Mondesi goes, well....they needed a utility man anyways. He can play SS, 2b, and 3b if need be, and can pinch run and can PH here and there.
The guy has skills. You can dream of him hitting .270 with 20 homers and 40 steals if given a full season. Of course even hitting .270 he'd be no guarantee to have a .300 OBP.
Odds are pretty good he isn't hitting .270 with 20 HRs and 40 steals. He's probably more .250 which will mean he's an out machine. That K/BB ratio is just so.....bad. It's there with Alfaro. Can you imagine both of them in the lineup? Well, Wong isn't that different either with his ratio, so yeah, I guess we'll see hitters at the bottom of the order hacking away at pitches you really wish they wouldn't.
Maybe by some miracle his plate discipline ascends to simply bad rather than horrendous and he can be a helluva pickup.
I figure at worst case scenario, there will be a bunch of games where Yoshida is on in the late innings in a tight game where they're up or tied and Mondesi can pinch-run for him and then they can insert Mondesi at SS and move Kiké out to CF where they can shift Duvall over to an outfield corner, thereby making the defense a lot more functional.
I guess Mondesi's presence means that he'll play a bunch of 2b if/when Arroyo gets injured or do they swap him with Kiké at play Kiké at 2b with Mondesi at SS?
I guess Valdez perhaps gets the worst of this as it'll be tougher for him get his crack at 2b when Arroyo gets injured, not that Valdez would be ready right now anyways.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jan 24, 2023 18:49:04 GMT -5
I think I'm probably higher than Josh Taylor on this board than anybody else. I thought he pitched quite well in 2019 and 2021, was useful, and I did have him in my circle of trust as far as relievers go during those years. He even had stretches where he strung together a bunch of zeroes in his relief outings. That said, I have no idea how healthy he is. I thought I had heard that his velocity was way down. If his velocity doesn't return or he doesn't get his stuff back, then yeah, highly expendable. Otherwise I think he's a useful pitcher that could have helped them. I guess Martin will get the late inning lefty outs along with the righties he can get out as well. I still think a late inning lefty would help them but don't see them getting one. As far as Mondesi goes, well....they needed a utility man anyways. He can play SS, 2b, and 3b if need be, and can pinch run and can PH here and there. The guy has skills. You can dream of him hitting .270 with 20 homers and 40 steals if given a full season. Of course even hitting .270 he'd be no guarantee to have a .300 OBP. Odds are pretty good he isn't hitting .270 with 20 HRs and 40 steals. He's probably more .250 which will mean he's an out machine. That K/BB ratio is just so.....bad. It's there with Alfaro. Can you imagine both of them in the lineup? Well, Wong isn't that different either with his ratio, so yeah, I guess we'll see hitters at the bottom of the order hacking away at pitches you really wish they wouldn't. Maybe by some miracle his plate discipline ascends to simply bad rather than horrendous and he can be a helluva pickup. I figure at worst case scenario, there will be a bunch of games where Yoshida is on in the late innings in a tight game where they're up or tied and Mondesi can pinch-run for him and then they can insert Mondesi at SS and move Kiké out to CF where they can shift Duvall over to an outfield corner, thereby making the defense a lot more functional. I guess Mondesi's presence means that he'll play a bunch of 2b if/when Arroyo gets injured or do they swap him with Kiké at play Kiké at 2b with Mondesi at SS? I guess Valdez perhaps gets the worst of this as it'll be tougher for him get his crack at 2b when Arroyo gets injured, not that Valdez would be ready right now anyways. An interesting question is who will play short when both are in the infield - Kiké or Mondesi? Mondesi's almost certainly a superior defender but Cora and Kiké seem to be really high on him playing short. Add: Bloom's presser makes it sound like the plan is Kiké as the primary shortstop.
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Post by wingman478 on Jan 24, 2023 19:37:03 GMT -5
Career OPS .674 against RHP. .719 against LHP. He's a revert split guy. Maybe they make him a RHB only. I like this move versus giving up real value for 2 years of Kim, who also can't hit. Great minds think alike.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jan 24, 2023 19:38:31 GMT -5
Question for anyone who might know on how the 60-day DL works - does spring training time count? Bloom said Mondesi might not be ready to go on opening day, could the Red Sox put him on the 60 day at the start of (or retroactive to) the first day of spring training, and have all that time count towards the 60 day minimum?
If so, could be a way to at least temporarily create another 40-man spot if they need it. Realize I'm talking about an edge case here and it wouldn't necessarily buy them a ton of time if he is ready close to opening day (and could force them to DFA a guy they'd rather keep if he is).
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Post by wOBA Fett on Jan 24, 2023 19:54:02 GMT -5
This is the type of move I hoped Bloom would make when he became GM. Mondesi is a guy with major injury risk who has 20/20 upside and can play multiple defensive infield possessions. He's also a bargain. Young players like this are the exact profile this team should be acquiring because they have more upside potential than 95% of the FAs on the market any given offseason. If Mondesi turns things around and the team is out of contention, you can also get a premium package on any trade because of his contract.
A+ Bloom, now go get Kelenic.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jan 24, 2023 19:59:58 GMT -5
iirc Josh Taylor himself was a PTBNL.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jan 24, 2023 20:10:01 GMT -5
Maybe we can get Jacob Wallace back from the Wyatt Mills trade.
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Post by blizzards39 on Jan 24, 2023 21:37:18 GMT -5
It's a very good pickup, but they need a Plan B. Mondesi is a great player, but he's made of glass. Think about him like James Paxton. Paxton isn't a bad pickup, but if you're relying on him to be the 3rd starter with no other guy on the wings, you're boned. But they're not. They already have Arroyo/Mondesi/Kiké/Duvall to fill three positions. If/when Story comes back they have 5 guys for those three positions. Plus Goodrum as a decent slightly-better-than-replacement-level option and Valdez for depth. Actually add in turner Casas Yoshida and Verdugo for all 7 spots other than 3B and C
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,923
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Post by ericmvan on Jan 24, 2023 22:16:03 GMT -5
Damn, I thought I was done running all my custom numbers for players! Not to mention looking at all the available ones in way too much detail.
I'll let you know what I think in a bit. But if I'm right about Duran he's the last position player on the 26-man. Right now I'd take the current projected roster and put Duran at 2B, Kiké at SS, and Mondesi on the bench instead of Tapia. Mondesi is the (perhaps loose) platoon partner at 2B. Would they have him at SS and Kiké at 2B when they face a LHP? Quite possibly.
You'll see him a lot in the 9th inning with a lead, batting 1st (so really 10th and hence not in the middle of any rally if they need one), with Kiké in CF and Duvall in LF -- a defensive upgrade at 3 positions.
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Post by wingman478 on Jan 24, 2023 22:56:36 GMT -5
Bloom stated today that Mondesi might not be ready for opening day.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jan 24, 2023 23:21:19 GMT -5
We now have 3 PTBNLs coming. This one, along with the Seabold and Hoy Park DFA trades. Can we combine them into one big PTBNL?
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 24, 2023 23:26:40 GMT -5
But they're not. They already have Arroyo/Mondesi/Kiké/Duvall to fill three positions. If/when Story comes back they have 5 guys for those three positions. Plus Goodrum as a decent slightly-better-than-replacement-level option and Valdez for depth. They’re going to roll with possibly Kiké at SS and Arroyo at 2B?
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jan 24, 2023 23:30:28 GMT -5
Orioles made a similar pick-up in Mateo and it worked out well for them I was kind of hoping the O's would trade him to us.
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Post by wingman478 on Jan 24, 2023 23:37:50 GMT -5
But they're not. They already have Arroyo/Mondesi/Kiké/Duvall to fill three positions. If/when Story comes back they have 5 guys for those three positions. Plus Goodrum as a decent slightly-better-than-replacement-level option and Valdez for depth. They’re going to roll with possibly Kiké at SS and Arroyo at 2B? It'll be a lot of combinations each night. The Sox will have a different lineup each night if everyone's healthy. Sort of what Cora and Bloom wants. Flexibility and options.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jan 24, 2023 23:42:59 GMT -5
It's like a comeback win in the rubber game of an April series in KC.
Feels good and you move on but could turn out to mean more by the end of the season.
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Post by Coreno on Jan 25, 2023 0:13:25 GMT -5
Worth noting that Raul was on the Dodgers teams that Cora first came up on. Wonder if he's already got a relationship with Jr.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,923
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Post by ericmvan on Jan 25, 2023 1:09:42 GMT -5
Mondesi is a terrific base-stealer -- not quite as great as Greg Allen, but with more experience stealing third, which might compensate for the difference (numbers may follow in a day or two). So he fills that need as well as adding a third middle-infielder. This, BTW, has ramifications for the rest of the roster, specifically the last spot ... see that thread.
He hasn't played 2B since 2018, and he's a career +10 or +11 per 150 G at SS. Given that Kiké doesn't seem to mind moving around, Mondesi has to be at SS and Kiké at 2B when both are in the lineup. They'll probably do that that whenever Bello starts, often when Whitlock does, and occasionally otherwise, depending on the opposing starter. This is consistent with Bloom re-iterating that Kiké is the main SS.
At the plate ... Mondesi's age 20 and 21 seasons were predictably bad, so we toss them.
He's a classic can't-hit-good-pitching guy. He has 7.3 career WAR (starting in 2018) but loses 2.3 from that inability.
His last 2 seasons had such small sample sizes that I'm not sure that including them yields correct answers. But from 2018 to 2020 he had 77, 75, and 70 OPS+ in Late and Close (74 overall), versus 103 Ordinary and 88 Blowout.
(The full splits are 81 / 99 / 67. His Blowout split by years: 137, 77, 40, -32, -100 (= 0/4). I see a lot of guys who don't seem to be trying when it doesn't matter, more so in the last few years than before -- a topic for further analysis.)
His career does break down into two parts: 3.7 sWAR / 600 in 2018 and 2019, and 1.5 since then, with only 2021 above replacement level. If it looks like he's turning back into the former, they can of course run with that. But I don't think they signed him for that -- he's a killer pinch-runner who can, when needed, be part of either a great infield defense, or a great overall one when Kiké moves to CF, and he's a solid doesn't-suck guy when injuries put him into the starting lineup.
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Post by sibbysisti on Jan 25, 2023 1:49:27 GMT -5
Had no idea that Raul Mondesi is sitting in prison right now on an 8 year political corruption sentence. And he was elected mayor of a large Dominican city. Shame.
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