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8/28-8/30 Red Sox vs. Astros Series Thread
cdj
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Post by cdj on Aug 31, 2023 15:02:35 GMT -5
Lol Yankees
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Post by Smittyw on Aug 31, 2023 15:08:22 GMT -5
The Red Sox also seem to go ballistic every time they have a first year manager so there’s another reason not to fear change, albeit a superstitious one more than anything. Francona = 2004 first-year Farrell = 2013 first-year Cora = 2018 first year your math definitely checks out! I suppose the Valentine and Roenicke Sox "went ballistic" as well, depending on your definition...
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Post by keninten on Aug 31, 2023 15:48:34 GMT -5
One thing is certain. Alex Cora cannot continue as manager of the Red Sox. Bloom is the guy that ownership wants to shape this team in the vision of. Cora does not mesh with Bloom. Bring in someone who will embrace analytics as manager. Experience as a major league player would be nice but not a must. Just bring in someone who meshes with Bloom. Also with 2018 we give Cora a lot of credit, but that team was a super team and we were just grateful to get rid of Farrell: That lineup had prime Mookie, Xander, JD, Benintendi, Moreland/Pearce, and Devers was at the bottom of the lineup The rotation had Sale, Price, Porcello, Eovaldi, all close to their prime Unfortunately, we haven’t seen Cora get the most out of the players recently and even when we’re winning it’s kinda dead. The baseball season is long and we need a manager to keep them focused and motivated. Cora doesn`t seem to give the young guys many chances. Dalbec and Casas he didn`t have alot of choices. He was a good fit for a veteran team like 2018. If he gets canned will you change your handle?
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Post by terriblehondo on Aug 31, 2023 15:55:43 GMT -5
Yep all Cora's fault nobody else in the organization. The only reason he won is he was provided a super team. It was all Tito's fault too. That is why he was never manager of the year in Boston. He was just managing super teams.
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Post by Montana Lemonious-Craig on Aug 31, 2023 16:03:49 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion but I think Cora has actually done a pretty decent job this season. Having to navigate through like 2 months of having only 3 starters, one of them being Kutter Crawford (nothing against Kutter, but he’s definitely not someone that anyone was thinking they’d have to depend on this season) and keeping the team in the playoff hunt with basically no additions at the deadline was pretty admirable if you ask me. I’ve definitely been frustrated with some of his lineup choices and bullpen management, but I don’t think his mistakes have been as egregious as they are made out to be on some of the game day threads. I wouldn’t mind it the Sox moved on from him next season, but I would also be happy to welcome him back. Also, FWIW I thought he did a tremendous job in 2021
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shagworthy
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My neckbeard game is on point.
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Post by shagworthy on Aug 31, 2023 16:11:48 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion but I think Cora has actually done a pretty decent job this season. Having to navigate through like 2 months of having only 3 starters, one of them being Kutter Crawford (nothing against Kutter, but he’s definitely not someone that anyone was thinking they’d have to depend on this season) and keeping the team in the playoff hunt with basically no additions at the deadline was pretty admirable if you ask me. I’ve definitely been frustrated with some of his lineup choices and bullpen management, but I don’t think his mistakes have been as egregious as they are made out to be on some of the game day threads. I wouldn’t mind it the Sox moved on from him next season, but I would also be happy to welcome him back. Also, FWIW I thought he did a tremendous job in 2021 Without knowing what is going on behind closed doors, I can sorta agree with this. From the outside looking in there seems to be a bit of apathy, and a bit of setting his guys up to fail to prove a point to the FO, and that, if true, I think is a cardinal sin. You can be upset with the cards you've been dealt, but to use those cards irresponsibly to prove a point is a no go for me. The problem is none of us will ever really know what is true here. Like the Sox did to Francona on his way out(the best manager we ever had) , they will control the narrative if they do decide to move on from Cora. It would almost be better if Cora makes the decision to move on, and says he wants to spend more time with family, etc etc. Just to spare us all from the 24 hour news cycle of BS theories as to why he is no longer the manager.
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Post by yuchangclan on Aug 31, 2023 16:15:39 GMT -5
Jason Varitek Kyle Snyder (brought him up earlier) Joe Maddon (lol but maybe) Torey Lovullo (if they can pry him away and get him back) Don Kelly (prior interviewee in 2020) Luis Urueta (prior interviewee in 2020) These are names I'd start with. I’d go with Don Mattingly. The Yankees hired Boone to troll the Sox. The Sox can hire Mattingly to troll the Yankees.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 31, 2023 16:19:34 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion but I think Cora has actually done a pretty decent job this season. Having to navigate through like 2 months of having only 3 starters, one of them being Kutter Crawford (nothing against Kutter, but he’s definitely not someone that anyone was thinking they’d have to depend on this season) and keeping the team in the playoff hunt with basically no additions at the deadline was pretty admirable if you ask me. I’ve definitely been frustrated with some of his lineup choices and bullpen management, but I don’t think his mistakes have been as egregious as they are made out to be on some of the game day threads. I wouldn’t mind it the Sox moved on from him next season, but I would also be happy to welcome him back. Also, FWIW I thought he did a tremendous job in 2021 Without knowing what is going on behind closed doors, I can sorta agree with this. From the outside looking in there seems to be a bit of apathy, and a bit of setting his guys up to fail to prove a point to the FO, and that, if true, I think is a cardinal sin. You can be upset with the cards you've been dealt, but to use those cards irresponsibly to prove a point is a no go for me. The problem is none of us will ever really know what is true here. Like the Sox did to Francona on his way out(the best manager we ever had) , they will control the narrative if they do decide to move on from Cora. It would almost be better if Cora makes the decision to move on, and says he wants to spend more time with family, etc etc. Just to spare us all from the 24 hour news cycle of BS theories as to why he is no longer the manager. Reading this and a few other comments on Cora, we may want to revisit what McAdam said a few weeks ago on Cotillo's podcast: "Chaim Bloom is very much Sam Kennedy's guy. Kennedy ran the search and Bloom was the only candidate presented to ownership. On the flip side, Alex Cora is very much ownership's guy. They love him and hired him back after the cheating scandal without considering anyone else."
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Post by fenwaydouble on Aug 31, 2023 16:22:09 GMT -5
It's not that Cora is a bad manager, it's that managers really only serve two purposes: 1. strategic game management, and 2. cultivating positive vibes that bring out the best in players. He's generally fine but clearly not overwhelmingly gifted at the former, and the vibes have been off for a couple of years now. Let's get some fresh blood in there and ride it until things inevitably get stale a few years down the road.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 31, 2023 16:23:38 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion but I think Cora has actually done a pretty decent job this season. Having to navigate through like 2 months of having only 3 starters, one of them being Kutter Crawford (nothing against Kutter, but he’s definitely not someone that anyone was thinking they’d have to depend on this season) and keeping the team in the playoff hunt with basically no additions at the deadline was pretty admirable if you ask me. I’ve definitely been frustrated with some of his lineup choices and bullpen management, but I don’t think his mistakes have been as egregious as they are made out to be on some of the game day threads. I wouldn’t mind it the Sox moved on from him next season, but I would also be happy to welcome him back. Also, FWIW I thought he did a tremendous job in 2021 Not sure I agree. Season long baserunning and fielding blunders have to fall at least somewhat on him/his coaches. Some pitching and lineup decisions were a bit iffy as well. I like Cora - I just wonder if he is the guy to turn things around.
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Post by taiwansox on Aug 31, 2023 17:29:02 GMT -5
Jason Varitek Kyle Snyder (brought him up earlier) Joe Maddon (lol but maybe) Torey Lovullo (if they can pry him away and get him back) Don Kelly (prior interviewee in 2020) Luis Urueta (prior interviewee in 2020) These are names I'd start with. I’d go with Don Mattingly. The Yankees hired Boone to troll the Sox. The Sox can hire Mattingly to troll the Yankees. Anyone but Joe Maddon for the love of god. He’s maybe the single most overrated manager in the history of the game. He tried his very best to blow game 7 of the World Series and he managed to get us back into the 2008 ALCS with his game 5 management. I’d rather have Ozzie Guillen if we’re talking retreads (at least he’d be super entertaining)
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 31, 2023 17:30:32 GMT -5
It's not that Cora is a bad manager, it's that managers really only serve two purposes: 1. strategic game management, and 2. cultivating positive vibes that bring out the best in players. He's generally fine but clearly not overwhelmingly gifted at the former, and the vibes have been off for a couple of years now. Let's get some fresh blood in there and ride it until things inevitably get stale a few years down the road. Strategic game management does not matter to this organization. They need someone who can follow to a T what the algorithms tell him to do. Basically Cora wants to approach this as a WS winning manager that has earned a lot of respect around the league and thats not how the organization wants to move forward. But they're all in on this approach so Cora becomes the sacrificial lamb. Bloom probably gets 3 more years or so.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 31, 2023 17:31:38 GMT -5
I’d go with Don Mattingly. The Yankees hired Boone to troll the Sox. The Sox can hire Mattingly to troll the Yankees. Anyone but Joe Maddon for the love of god. He’s maybe the single most overrated manager in the history of the game. He tried his very best to blow game 7 of the World Series and he managed to get us back into the 2008 ALCS with his game 5 management. I’d rather have Ozzie Guillen if we’re talking retreads (at least he’d be super entertaining) None of those guys will be hired other than maybe Snyder. Bloom will probably grab someone from the Tampa organization that he knows.
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Post by Montana Lemonious-Craig on Aug 31, 2023 17:31:53 GMT -5
My dream candidates are Kevin Cash and Gabe Kapler, but I don’t see either of them leaving where they are
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Post by terriblehondo on Aug 31, 2023 17:46:39 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion but I think Cora has actually done a pretty decent job this season. Having to navigate through like 2 months of having only 3 starters, one of them being Kutter Crawford (nothing against Kutter, but he’s definitely not someone that anyone was thinking they’d have to depend on this season) and keeping the team in the playoff hunt with basically no additions at the deadline was pretty admirable if you ask me. I’ve definitely been frustrated with some of his lineup choices and bullpen management, but I don’t think his mistakes have been as egregious as they are made out to be on some of the game day threads. I wouldn’t mind it the Sox moved on from him next season, but I would also be happy to welcome him back. Also, FWIW I thought he did a tremendous job in 2021 Not sure I agree. Season long baserunning and fielding blunders have to fall at least somewhat on him/his coaches. Some pitching and lineup decisions were a bit iffy as well. I like Cora - I just wonder if he is the guy to turn things around. Well I think the base running and fielding blunders are the players. Most of what I have seen this year are frigging mistakes that were unacceptable in 11 and under travel ball. Well at least they were 20 years ago. Some guys are just knuckleheads and don't ever get it. Overthrowing cutoffs allowing guys to take extra bases. The base running has been clueless so many offenders. The coaches weren't telling Wong to round 2nd base with Casas in front of him with Mookie charging the ball. A baseball player should know what they are going to be doing before the play not during the play. I would have benched most of this team or fined the crap out of them for the mental errors. Billy Martin fighting Reggie in the dugout would be me. The Major Leagues is not where you get taught how to fundamentally play the game. The fielding, well when you have a bunch of guys who aren't that good at defense this is what you get. The team has 4 guys who would be better at DH, A centerfielder who is not a centerfielder but he is still out there playing center. A good rightfielder that the next time he hits a cutoff man might be the first time. The middle infielders not good or hurt. The triple A depth in the middle infield are both bad defensively one cannot throw and the other cannot field. Christ they tried to play Dalbec at SS. Andy Fox has always been thought of as a good infield coach. So is he the problem or the players? Cora has always been good defensively and fundamentally. I have followed him since his time at UM so I am a bit biased. Red Sox teams that were built like this one were why I became a Whitey Herzog disciple. Pitching, Defense and speed.
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Aug 31, 2023 17:49:36 GMT -5
Cora is fine as has been posted above, but there is a shelf life to managers for organizations in the MLB and even more so in Boston. I'm not saying you make a change, simply to make a change. I'm just saying, if he seems to have "lost the room" and his overall managerial message is growing stale. Then it's time to move on. In my opinion the inconsistency of this team had far more to do with roster construction than anything else.
This team entered the season with a gaping black hole in the middle of the infield and an aging injury prone rotation. They have given us a summer of meaningful baseball which is all I hoped for on opening day.
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Post by danredhawk on Aug 31, 2023 19:08:45 GMT -5
It mystifies me how the Sox winning 80-85 games (the high-end of their potential this season with a fundamentally flawed roster, which carried significant injury risk, defensive risk and depth risk) could possibly be a proof of concept for Bloom and a fireable offense for Cora...
Handed a mismatched roster with limited potential in April, fired for simply maximizing but not exceeding expectations in September...
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If both are relieved of their responsibilities so be it. If only Cora is fired it would be both a shame/mistake and a mistreatment - he's forced to endure four years of Bloom and Ownership prioritizing the farm at the expense of the big club and then punished for the on-field results.
I agree with those above who commend the job Cora has done this season. It just isn't a good roster, and THAT is why they are not winning more or playing to the level we'd all like to see them play to. Quite honestly, Cora's ability to maximize communication and culture is the likely reason they've held things together this long.
MLB managers do not 'coach' their players to better defense and base running - these guys are 25-35 years old and have been playing baseball their entire lives. If they don't have it by now, a day off white board/fundamental session isn't going to cure anything. The team was simply built with no attention to how defensive shortcomings played into total player value (and that's fine - certainly, if you get the 'value' you want than who cares what it looks like is one way to go)...
To date, Cora has maximized personnel. In this case, if you're not going to axe the architect, firing the foreman would be a BS decision to make. Cora would end up elsewhere and find success (creating consternation on SP.com), I'm not remotely ready to say the same for Bloom...
In hindsight, Francona should have been retained. Cherington? Who cares.
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Post by manfred on Aug 31, 2023 19:17:27 GMT -5
I’ve been reading old threads… old off season threads, prediction threads, etc. I have to say…. pessimists get bashed and accused of being repetitive, but the “this is fine” certainly looks familiar. I don’t know whose head rolls, and I don’t know what major off-season upgrade they make, but there better be something. I just don’t think they can keep selling “we are close” or “if only…” any longer. Well, except to a section of this on-line fanbase.
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Post by scottysmalls on Aug 31, 2023 19:35:34 GMT -5
It mystifies me how the Sox winning 80-85 games (the high-end of their potential this season with a fundamentally flawed roster, which carried significant injury risk, defensive risk and depth risk) could possibly be a proof of concept for Bloom and a fireable offense for Cora... Handed a mismatched roster with limited potential in April, fired for simply maximizing but not exceeding expectations in September... -- If both are relieved of their responsibilities so be it. If only Cora is fired it would be both a shame/mistake and a mistreatment - he's forced to endure four years of Bloom and Ownership prioritizing the farm at the expense of the big club and then punished for the on-field results. I agree with those above who commend the job Cora has done this season. It just isn't a good roster, and THAT is why they are not winning more or playing to the level we'd all like to see them play to. Quite honestly, Cora's ability to maximize communication and culture is the likely reason they've held things together this long. MLB managers do not 'coach' their players to better defense and base running - these guys are 25-35 years old and have been playing baseball their entire lives. If they don't have it by now, a day off white board/fundamental session isn't going to cure anything. The team was simply built with no attention to how defensive shortcomings played into total player value (and that's fine - certainly, if you get the 'value' you want than who cares what it looks like is one way to go)... To date, Cora has maximized personnel. In this case, if you're not going to axe the architect, firing the foreman would be a BS decision to make. Cora would end up elsewhere and find success (creating consternation on SP.com), I'm not remotely ready to say the same for Bloom... In hindsight, Francona should have been retained. Cherington? Who cares. Not gonna get into the whole assigning blame thing but just will say the bolded is a straw man I don't think any one has actually said this.
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Post by 0ap0 on Aug 31, 2023 19:43:39 GMT -5
It's not that Cora is a bad manager, it's that managers really only serve two purposes: 1. strategic game management, and 2. cultivating positive vibes that bring out the best in players. He's generally fine but clearly not overwhelmingly gifted at the former, and the vibes have been off for a couple of years now. Let's get some fresh blood in there and ride it until things inevitably get stale a few years down the road. and 3. to get thrown under the bus when a team needs something of a reboot while keeping all the players.
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Post by scottysmalls on Aug 31, 2023 19:45:04 GMT -5
I’ve been reading old threads… old off season threads, prediction threads, etc. I have to say…. pessimists get bashed and accused of being repetitive, but the “this is fine” certainly looks familiar. I don’t know whose head rolls, and I don’t know what major off-season upgrade they make, but there better be something. I just don’t think they can keep selling “we are close” or “if only…” any longer. Well, except to a section of this on-line fanbase. I don't know I mean generally the pre-season "optimists" predicted wins in the 84-88 range which I think is much more likely still than the pre-season "pessimistic" range of 74-78, and as of now I'll still predict the team lands in the upper range rather than the lower one. Add: More clearly, the median prediction on the board was 81 wins and I'll still take the over on that. forum.soxprospects.com/thread/6689/2023-red-sox-win-projection?page=5Add: Last couple pages of the thread I didn't get to in the above ranges had some more extreme projections, including 72 and 92, neither of which seem particularly within reason right now
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Post by danredhawk on Aug 31, 2023 19:49:32 GMT -5
It mystifies me how the Sox winning 80-85 games (the high-end of their potential this season with a fundamentally flawed roster, which carried significant injury risk, defensive risk and depth risk) could possibly be a proof of concept for Bloom and a fireable offense for Cora... Handed a mismatched roster with limited potential in April, fired for simply maximizing but not exceeding expectations in September... -- If both are relieved of their responsibilities so be it. If only Cora is fired it would be both a shame/mistake and a mistreatment - he's forced to endure four years of Bloom and Ownership prioritizing the farm at the expense of the big club and then punished for the on-field results. I agree with those above who commend the job Cora has done this season. It just isn't a good roster, and THAT is why they are not winning more or playing to the level we'd all like to see them play to. Quite honestly, Cora's ability to maximize communication and culture is the likely reason they've held things together this long. MLB managers do not 'coach' their players to better defense and base running - these guys are 25-35 years old and have been playing baseball their entire lives. If they don't have it by now, a day off white board/fundamental session isn't going to cure anything. The team was simply built with no attention to how defensive shortcomings played into total player value (and that's fine - certainly, if you get the 'value' you want than who cares what it looks like is one way to go)... To date, Cora has maximized personnel. In this case, if you're not going to axe the architect, firing the foreman would be a BS decision to make. Cora would end up elsewhere and find success (creating consternation on SP.com), I'm not remotely ready to say the same for Bloom... In hindsight, Francona should have been retained. Cherington? Who cares. Not gonna get into the whole assigning blame thing but just will say the bolded is a straw man I don't think any one has actually said this. A post just one page back offers the following opinion... if the team ends at 84-85 wins as they project to I think that mood will fade; that's a winning record, after all, and the long-term approach does have them pointed in the right direction. I mean, fans will obviously continue to bitch and moan, but I think it would be extremely unlikely for ownership to fire Bloom in this scenario.That is hardly a lone wolf opinion - nor is blaming Cora or preferring his ouster (as so many posts that followed directly advocated for). I'm not going to parse out every poster's individual opinion and respond directly to every last one. All told, there seem to be two takes forming on an 85-win 2023 season (from those I feel driven to respond to) and those are 1) it being a great sign of Bloom's long term strategy and 2) it's not a good enough showing from Cora... It isn't a strawman argument to acknowledge and address those take trends comprehensively...
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Post by scottysmalls on Aug 31, 2023 19:54:51 GMT -5
Not gonna get into the whole assigning blame thing but just will say the bolded is a straw man I don't think any one has actually said this. A post just one page back offers the following opinion... if the team ends at 84-85 wins as they project to I think that mood will fade; that's a winning record, after all, and the long-term approach does have them pointed in the right direction. I mean, fans will obviously continue to bitch and moan, but I think it would be extremely unlikely for ownership to fire Bloom in this scenario.That is hardly a lone wolf opinion - nor is blaming Cora or preferring his ouster (as so many posts that followed directly advocated for). I'm not going to parse out every poster's individual opinion and respond directly to every last one. All told, there seem to be two takes forming on an 85-win 2023 season (from those I feel driven to respond to) and those are 1) it being a great sign of Bloom's long term strategy and 2) it's not a good enough showing from Cora... It isn't a strawman argument to acknowledge and address those take trends comprehensively... The poster you're quoting also indicated he didn't think Cora should be fired. Your original statement implied that someone made an argument that both the season indicated Bloom was doing a good job and that Cora was doing a bad job at the same time and that Cora should be fired for it, and I don't think anyone said that. Some want Cora to go pretty much just to shake things up, some want him to go and also think Bloom stinks, some just said they think Cora will be fired (not that he should be), some want Cora to go independent of the team's record, plenty want Bloom to go. But no one said what your original statement argued against.
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Post by danredhawk on Aug 31, 2023 20:06:24 GMT -5
A post just one page back offers the following opinion... if the team ends at 84-85 wins as they project to I think that mood will fade; that's a winning record, after all, and the long-term approach does have them pointed in the right direction. I mean, fans will obviously continue to bitch and moan, but I think it would be extremely unlikely for ownership to fire Bloom in this scenario.That is hardly a lone wolf opinion - nor is blaming Cora or preferring his ouster (as so many posts that followed directly advocated for). I'm not going to parse out every poster's individual opinion and respond directly to every last one. All told, there seem to be two takes forming on an 85-win 2023 season (from those I feel driven to respond to) and those are 1) it being a great sign of Bloom's long term strategy and 2) it's not a good enough showing from Cora... It isn't a strawman argument to acknowledge and address those take trends comprehensively... The poster you're quoting also indicated he didn't think Cora should be fired. Your original statement implied that someone made an argument that both the season indicated Bloom was doing a good job and that Cora was doing a bad job at the same time and that Cora should be fired for it, and I don't think anyone said that. Some want Cora to go pretty much just to shake things up, some want him to go and also think Bloom stinks, some just said they think Cora will be fired (not that he should be), some want Cora to go independent of the team's record, plenty want Bloom to go. But no one said what your original statement argued against. I'm glad we've taken the time to nail down our differing perceptions of what we've read over the past few weeks on SoxProspects.com. Insightful for everyone I'm sure...
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Post by scottysmalls on Aug 31, 2023 20:12:13 GMT -5
The poster you're quoting also indicated he didn't think Cora should be fired. Your original statement implied that someone made an argument that both the season indicated Bloom was doing a good job and that Cora was doing a bad job at the same time and that Cora should be fired for it, and I don't think anyone said that. Some want Cora to go pretty much just to shake things up, some want him to go and also think Bloom stinks, some just said they think Cora will be fired (not that he should be), some want Cora to go independent of the team's record, plenty want Bloom to go. But no one said what your original statement argued against. I'm glad we've taken the time to nail down our differing perceptions of what we've read over the past few weeks on SoxProspects.com. Insightful for everyone I'm sure... Fair enough, don't think anyone here's had a great time with the team the last couple weeks, we all express the frustrations our own ways
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