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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Nov 7, 2014 0:09:45 GMT -5
And Ortiz Babip just miraculously rose in it's own ? Or maybe it got a little help because cespedes hit behind him, causing Ortiz to see better pitches to hit? Watch out Larry. There are a lot of people who think such things are nonsense. I'm with you though and NOT ASHAMED OF IT! One guy does a study of the issue and people read it and all start nodding their heads up and down. I'm not convinced. If Ortiz is walked you don't want to face Cespedes as the next guy up. Cespedes probably does impact the quality of pitches Ortiz got after he was added. The overall Boston offense was toothless before Cespedes and afterward much better. Cespedes is a proven run producer. After he left Oakland their offense tanked as well. He's more than his metrics.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,984
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Post by jimoh on Nov 7, 2014 7:03:55 GMT -5
Didn't they just deal with the Orioles when they traded Miller? Was that their quota? The asset we gave to the Orioles would only help them in 2014, a season in which we were toast.
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Post by jmei on Nov 7, 2014 14:20:06 GMT -5
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Post by larrycook on Nov 7, 2014 21:07:03 GMT -5
Ortiz might be sad to see him go, but cespedes for Mets pitching matches up well.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 7, 2014 21:59:51 GMT -5
Ortiz might be sad to see him go, but cespedes for Mets pitching matches up well. Geez, you know that Ortiz was an excellent hitter before Cespedes arrived, no? He was an excellent hitter when he was batting behind Manny and had Millar or Varitek "protecting" him. He was an excellent hitter when he had Manny "protecting" him and he was an excellent hitter once Manny was gone and no longer "protecting" him except the period of time when he was coming off his injury and struggled. He was also an excellent hitter when Napoli was behind him, even when Napoli was useless during the summer months of 2013. Maybe, Ortiz is just an excellent hitter. I personally think Ortiz's season got better when he stopped trying to pull everything and started going the other way again. I doubt Cespedes really had much to do with Ortiz's sucess. Ortiz is successful because he's an awesome hitter regardless of who hits behind him.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 8, 2014 0:34:04 GMT -5
I do think Cespedes is a goner, one way or another.
The Sox need two starting pitchers.
I figure on one of two scenarios in which the Sox get two pitchers.
I think the Sox either deal Cespedes to the Mets along with another pitching prospect such as Webster and perhaps a guy like Deven Marrero in a deal for Jon Niese and Daniel Murphy who would wind up at 3b.
And the Sox would then sign James Shields for 5 years $110 so that they wind up adding Shields and Niese and wind up with Murphy playing 3b.
The other combo scenario I can see is Cespedes going along with somebody like Webster for Matt Latos and I can see the Sox dealing Owens or Rodriguez, Marrero, Margot, and Coyle for Cole Hamels and the Sox would get Sandoval for 3b at about 5 years $100 million.
I just think the Sox will wind up with a righty and a lefty added to the rotation and a LH hitting 3b.
Maybe the Sox have something even more creative in mind. Guess we'll have to see how it plays out. Next week in the GM meetings, the Sox should be laying down the groundwork for some December deals and a potential free agent signing or two.
I personally would rather see the Sox re-sign Lester and deal Cespedes and excess AAA starters for one of the Mets' or Reds' surplus of starters.
3b I'm kind of torn on. I'm really not crazy about the idea of the Sox spending big $ on Sandoval or rather many years on him. I do think they need a LH bat. I'd prefer to see them sign Hanley Ramirez even though he's a righty and it might be a very regrettable signing or perhaps gamble on an international free agent 3b.
My real hope is that Cecchini nails down the job, but as others have pointed out, even if he pans out as a hitter, his defense is highly questionable. I just hope he has some Wade Boggs in him - not just as a hitter, but as a fielder. Boggs made two errors on the first two balls hit to him at 3b and actually played some 1b in his rookie year, but he went from being a reputed defensive liability to being a defensive asset, something that perhaps Cecchini with time and effort can do? Probably not, but he'd fit the bill as a lefty hitter and the price would be right, and I do believe he'll be a pretty good hitter in the majors.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 8, 2014 1:19:30 GMT -5
If we think that lineup positioning makes all the difference, then we attribute Ortiz 2013 numbers to Napoli, right? I'm not willing to do that. It's the baseball equivalent of numerology.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 13, 2014 17:58:45 GMT -5
How do we match up with Seattle for Walker or Paxton?
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Post by rafael on Nov 13, 2014 22:51:39 GMT -5
How do we match up with Seattle for Walker or Paxton? I read an article today suggesting that we traded Cespedes for Walker straight up. Seems a no-brainer for the Red Sox to me. I highly doubt that Seattle would do that trade though.
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ehaz
Rookie
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Post by ehaz on Nov 13, 2014 23:22:33 GMT -5
How do we match up with Seattle for Walker or Paxton? I read an article today suggesting that we traded Cespedes for Walker straight up. Seems a no-brainer for the Red Sox to me. I highly doubt that Seattle would do that trade though. Yeah I'm afraid they'd like the package centered around a controllable hitter like Betts or Bogaerts, whom I would refuse to give up. Perhaps Swihart, but the Mariners are probably good at catcher with Zunino and the other Sox position player prospects are likely to far away (Devers/Margot). I guess a trade could work if Seattle valued quantity over quality - Cespedes, Marrero, Owens and a lower minors player like Rijo. It's gonna cost quite a bit for a universal top 10 prospect with ace stuff and 5 years of control.
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Post by rafael on Nov 14, 2014 10:30:33 GMT -5
That deal of Walker for Cespedes, Marrero, Owens and possibly Rijo may do it. Even with his excellent stuff and ceiling of an ace, Walker is no sure thing.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 14, 2014 13:06:27 GMT -5
That deal of Walker for Cespedes, Marrero, Owens and possibly Rijo may do it. Even with his excellent stuff and ceiling of an ace, Walker is no sure thing. That's a ridiculous deal for someone who is not a sure thing.
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Post by rafael on Nov 14, 2014 14:19:25 GMT -5
That deal of Walker for Cespedes, Marrero, Owens and possibly Rijo may do it. Even with his excellent stuff and ceiling of an ace, Walker is no sure thing. That's a ridiculous deal for someone who is not a sure thing. Was just thinking about that and reached the same conclusion, we would be hosed in that deal. Cespedes and Owens would do it.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 14, 2014 15:03:14 GMT -5
That's a ridiculous deal for someone who is not a sure thing. Was just thinking about that and reached the same conclusion, we would be hosed in that deal. Cespedes and Owens would do it. I wouldn't even give up Owens. I was thinking more along the lines of Cespedes and Webster or Barnes. They're the ones looking for some power in the outfield.
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Post by jmei on Nov 17, 2014 14:43:16 GMT -5
With the Mets presumably out of the picture (after signing Cuddyer) and the Reds looking less like a fit (they're reportedly intent on contending and looking for OBP out of their left fielder), could the Mariners be a fit? Here's Cafardo speculating about an Iwakuma-for-Cespedes exchange: www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/11/16/brian-sabean-makes-right-moves-for-san-francisco-giants/oOn8Sf5MPnLH4G93UE9NCO/story.htmlSeattle does seem perpetually desperate for power, but you'd think they'd want more than Cespedes for Iwakuma (if only because Yoenis can't be offered the QO). But if that extra is minimal enough, I'd be all over that one. Iwakuma would be the perfect #2 starter the Red Sox need.
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Post by taftreign on Nov 17, 2014 15:22:06 GMT -5
Especially at a bargain price of $7m. That makes me believe there would definitely need to be either money or a prospect or both involved to balance the deal in addition to your reasons.
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Post by sibbysisti on Nov 17, 2014 16:06:31 GMT -5
With the Mets presumably out of the picture (after signing Cuddyer) and the Reds looking less like a fit (they're reportedly intent on contending and looking for OBP out of their left fielder), could the Mariners be a fit? Here's Cafardo speculating about an Iwakuma-for-Cespedes exchange: www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/11/16/brian-sabean-makes-right-moves-for-san-francisco-giants/oOn8Sf5MPnLH4G93UE9NCO/story.htmlSeattle does seem perpetually desperate for power, but you'd think they'd want more than Cespedes for Iwakuma (if only because Yoenis can't be offered the QO). But if that extra is minimal enough, I'd be all over that one. Iwakuma would be the perfect #2 starter the Red Sox need. "@bnightengale: Now that the #braves have traded Heyward, Juston Upton could be next with #mariners a strong suitor."
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 17, 2014 16:28:12 GMT -5
I'm not sure I see any reason why these players would materially differ in terms of pure trade value. Iwakuma is cheaper and can be offered a QO, so I would say the scale would tilt in Iwakuma's favor but I just don't see him being worth that much more than Cespedes.
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Post by jmei on Nov 17, 2014 17:06:25 GMT -5
Iwakuma is better, cheaper, and can be offered the QO. The Red Sox won't need to throw in Swihart or anything, but they'll need more than Cespedes.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,833
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Post by nomar on Nov 17, 2014 17:35:10 GMT -5
Iwakuma would be HUGE for us, way more important than Cespedes would be considering his alternatives that we already have on hand (Victorino/Nava/Craig/JBJ). I'd definitely jump on a Cespedes + Marrero type deal for Iwakuma. Iwakuma flies under the radar. He probably won't be ridiculous by any means to extend compared to bigger names of the same skill level. His pitching style also should age very well.
He's almost a polar opposite of Cespedes (sexy power and overvalued because of popularity vs quiet, consistent skillset while being fairly overlooked).
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Post by trotsdirtyhat on Nov 17, 2014 21:54:04 GMT -5
Just spit-balling here, because the more I think about it, the more I would prefer to keep Cespedes for 2015, but...
Today Heyward + Walden were traded for Shelby Miller + Jenkins. Would the Mariners consider a trade built upon a foundation (as in, probably an addition or two on the Red Sox side of things) of a Cespedes for James Paxton swap? I see this being an alternate if the Mariners want to go all-in and contend for 2015 by keeping Iwakuma, and the even though the Red Sox would want to do the same with their resources, Paxton is still a quality LH pitcher now at age 26. I realize that Heyward provides more overall WAR, better D, and a draft pick if he doesn't resign, however I see Cespedes as a comparable offensive talent with more power but worse in the OBP dept.
Thoughts?
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 17, 2014 22:01:21 GMT -5
With the Mets presumably out of the picture (after signing Cuddyer) and the Reds looking less like a fit (they're reportedly intent on contending and looking for OBP out of their left fielder), could the Mariners be a fit? Here's Cafardo speculating about an Iwakuma-for-Cespedes exchange: www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/11/16/brian-sabean-makes-right-moves-for-san-francisco-giants/oOn8Sf5MPnLH4G93UE9NCO/story.htmlSeattle does seem perpetually desperate for power, but you'd think they'd want more than Cespedes for Iwakuma (if only because Yoenis can't be offered the QO). But if that extra is minimal enough, I'd be all over that one. Iwakuma would be the perfect #2 starter the Red Sox need. "@bnightengale: Now that the #braves have traded Heyward, Juston Upton could be next with #mariners a strong suitor." I'm calling BS on this being anything more than idle speculation. I'm guessing Upton still has the Mariners on his no-trade list. We've been through this once.
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Post by jdb on Nov 21, 2014 10:40:58 GMT -5
Buster mentions Porcello could be on the market. In my opinion he and Cespedes could have similar value and they need to replaceHunter. Couple of guys with similar salaries and each worth just over 3 wins. He's young and could be a solid 3 who can pitch 200 innings which would be big. insider.espn.go.com/blog/buster-olney/post/_/id/8669
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Post by jmei on Nov 21, 2014 12:12:20 GMT -5
I love me some Porcello and would be all over that one.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 21, 2014 16:10:06 GMT -5
You definitely are a Porcello whore... he finally started making you look alright last year.
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