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Post by tonyc on May 19, 2016 11:11:43 GMT -5
What Orr did, like Jimed and others mentioned was like Babe Ruth being the best pitcher in the league other than Walter Johnson, and also changing the entire game into power hitting. Further, and this is more subjective, not apples to apples but I will argue that while even exciting baseball plays are rapid and truncated, the other three major sports afford multiple plays and moves to be done at once- a running back making moves around one player then another then another. Orr was by far the best at starting at his own net then faking out a fore checker, then another, then a defenseman then a goalie up the ice with unbelievable moves, each unique to that moment, and at record speed in what's already the fastest game in the world. I would argue he was therfore the most exciting player of all time in any sport. Gretzky was just a wonderful finisher who made those moves from the blue line in. Also, not the great all around player at all ends of the ice Orr was. In the 1973 playoffs against the NY Rangers he started from behind his net and made amazing moves to fake out two players, then leaned in to his left and held off the defenseman with his left arm and roofed a backhand over the goalie with his right.
He was always amazingly humble and continues to give to children and causes and gets pissed if his anonymity in that is blown. His autobiography doesn't laud his individual plays but serves as a mentor ship for parents and shares life wisdom in general. Phill, I would love access to that hockey hall of fame vote, because sadly as more writers die who saw Orr play, the opinion swings toward Gretzky, similarly to the way today's voters in the Rock and Roll Hall of fame basically shunned the greatest classic rock bands and elected more current bands who couldn't light a candle to them talent wise and compositionally (I play and write classic rock myself).
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Post by tonyc on May 18, 2016 18:40:16 GMT -5
Elias now bears watching. In light of the starters inconsistency and Rodriguez setback, I'm crossing my fingers that he not only becomes a factor for rotation depth for this year, but also forestalls the loss of prospects in exchange for said depth in the coming months.
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Pedro
May 18, 2016 18:15:42 GMT -5
Post by tonyc on May 18, 2016 18:15:42 GMT -5
A close friend who used to write for Sports Ilustrated played me back a tape of an interview with Red Auerbach. When my friend asked Red a hypothetical, "what if" question, Red interrupted in his heavy accent with "if, if, if my grandmother had balls she'd be my grandfather."
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Post by tonyc on May 17, 2016 23:51:08 GMT -5
Folks, I absolutely loved Pedro. However, how many of you were Bruin fans at the time of Orr? He held onto the puck for most of the game. .there was no more dominant athlete in any position in any sport. They talk about a plus/minus of 20 being good and he was about plus 140 or so one year. And in terms of all around ability.. He played great defense, dove and covered the net as good as a goalie, played amazing offense, and was tough, a great fighter when called for. And in terms of excitement the only thing close in any sport was Gayle Sayers decking out everyone... Orr took the puck from behind the net and made amazing moves decking out an entire team going coast to coast. He clearly was the best at his sport, but was cursed that they didn't do scopes in those days, just total knee replacements so it was a shortened career. Finally, he singlehandedly changed defenseman from being defense only to playing everywhere- how many athletes can claim that legacy?
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Post by tonyc on May 14, 2016 13:55:11 GMT -5
Brisox, I wish to also thank you sincerely as your great contributions in this post are one of many reasons I have returned to this site to read for over 10 years, even though I seldom post. Kindly continue with your wonderful insights!
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Post by tonyc on Apr 27, 2016 11:57:45 GMT -5
Just read this thread- Sarasoxer you beat me to the punch was about to mention Fisk, but also Butch Hobson and Rick Burleson- all three extraordinary hard workers. Nomar obviously totally changed his body, and Mo Vaughn (in the fringe benefit to the otherwise horrible Tudor for Easler trade) was taught by Easler to swing upward to generate loft.
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Post by tonyc on Mar 21, 2016 19:12:59 GMT -5
Amen to all the Gorman comments. He was even rumored to have been close to dumping a young Mo Vaughn for an aging Syd Fernandez, and later admitted to buying into the Redsox fandom mentality of going for it every year- so good for Cherington indeed. I'll admit I incorrectly chided Gorman at the time he dumped Schiraldi for a supposedly injured Lee Smith. As soon as Duquette replaced him I was ecstatic and felt they would win a series some day- I always prayed for one in my lifetime!
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Post by tonyc on Feb 24, 2016 15:53:42 GMT -5
Jimed, while I've agreed with the vast majority of your fine posts, I'll have to agree to disagree here at least in part. Yes, this amount of wealth and consumption versus the rest of the world is an unfortunate reality, which perhaps Pablo could be construed to symbolize. However, this is not a fictitious problem, and no amount of wealth- or personal trainers or dietitians can necessarily provide an easy fix for the many- roughly a third of our nation- struggling with this disease. While we may offer a mulligan of compassion toward the more obvious physical illnesses, our culture is less inclined to do so with neurologically imbedded challenges- which this is, and I have similarly even seen professionals treat psychological ailments with stigma. Alienation, of other people and beings, in it's many guises- and I'm certainly not immune either- is at the heart of all individual and societal ills.
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Post by tonyc on Feb 24, 2016 11:12:24 GMT -5
While being disappointed in Sandoval's conditioning I'm more distraught by the media, and perhaps some fans following them. The nation is currently making some progress with regard to racial and sexual orientation prejudice, however the derogatory weight comments by Felger, and to a lesser extent Tom Werner were offensive and people in my corporation would be immediately dismissed for them. Yes he is overpaid and underperforming, however I had personal experience in the past with compulsive eating and it is a very difficult trap to climb out of- almost like Newtonian physics in that the harder you attempt to resist an urge to not binge the more you bring it on. It is an illness, and is widespread nationwide.
In general the over critical nature of the Boston media, Felger, Shaunessy in particular is a disincentive for players to come here, and just spreads negative vibes in what could be a more enjoyable pastime. Witness the hot seat Don Sweeny is now in as no deadline move will be viewed positively. This "win every year pressure" is what results in moves like Bagwell wheras patience and a longer term view enables more effective team building- yes it's better to take some lumps some years.
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Post by tonyc on Feb 23, 2016 19:28:44 GMT -5
Regarding John Tudor's stuff, I sat next to the guy with the radar gun in Yankee stadium while he was still with the sox and he consistently hit 93-94 that day. Was heartbroken over his trade for Easler, but the silver lining was Easler, later as a batting coach taught Mo Vaugn loft, and made him into what Phil Plantier looked like he would be.
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Post by tonyc on Feb 18, 2016 14:18:59 GMT -5
The Yankees have a high enough ceiling if things break right, but have some widcards in their rotation- Sabbathias and Tanakas health, and the aged hitters- to where they could finish poorly as well. Brian, you echo my thoughts regarding Cashman for about the last year and a half. His "throw money to the wall and see who sticks" never impressed me, and I think he's done some of his finer work lately under a budget.
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Post by tonyc on Feb 18, 2016 14:07:49 GMT -5
If you were following the live threads here during that trade deadline, the values were dropping for selling pitchers at the time and they would not have gotten a top prospect. Further, aside from Lackey's role in the chicken and beer incident, he showed blatant disrespect toward Farell when he'd remove him from games, and also threatened to sit out the year if kept- and who knows what other behind the scenes trouble he caused. Despite the way it turned out I was glad to see him gone and given Kelly's potential and youth it was not a bad gamble at all.
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Post by tonyc on Feb 17, 2016 15:12:57 GMT -5
Radiohix thanks so much for the pic! I love this site.
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Post by tonyc on Feb 16, 2016 0:55:27 GMT -5
Bannister articulates something I've thought about for many years, each pitcher has uniqueness of expression more so than other players, specifically in how they "shape" their pitches, and never more so than with curveballs as those can vary so greatly in both velocity and shape. I remember, as mentioned in another post the hard sharp break of Mark Clear, but also the hard tight curve occasionally thrown by Rich Gossage. And Pedro, in reality had closer to 15 pitches when all the variations are considered. Pitching "Backwards" is nothing new of course, thinking about Pat Dobson, or Jamie Moyer who was so successful. Bert Blylevens curve practically went from behind hitters heads to the strike zone. I saw Bernie Williams flail uncharacteristically at a diving Tom Gordon curve. About the greatest pitch I ever saw was a Daniel Bard 2 seamer against the Yankees at 99mph with explosive lateral movement. Bannister sounds like he could make a difference in the approach for a number of pitchers over the coming years.
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Post by tonyc on Feb 14, 2016 1:36:22 GMT -5
Last night I shook hands and briefly spoke with a Redsox player my height but more muscular, Anderson Espinoza! He was quiet and very polite. It was in a dream of course. I mentioned how great Sox prosepects is, and that you projected more strikeouts as the shackles come off throwing more offspeed pitches. I told him how fortunate he was to be under pitch counts and meticulous coaching; that around 1973 the number one pick in the nation David Clyde, was immediately brought up and pitched many innings, as did Baylor Moore on the Expos, both of whom threw as hard as him, but were soon toast. Also that a Detroit scout a year or two earlier mentioned that Boston had more good pitching prospects than any other team- but same ending, not enough care or coaching. I wanted to know his weight, his lifting routine, his goals for this year, and if he threw a two and four seamer- but just before he could answer woke up.
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Post by tonyc on Feb 11, 2016 13:52:37 GMT -5
Thanks for the data Eric. I too am bullish on Owens. Keith Foulke had unusual control, but in my limited views of Owens I noticed he too had an ability to sometimes hit the upper corners of the zone with fastballs, then the lower ones with change ups low, hopefully a foreshadowing of the increased command which you postulate.
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Post by tonyc on Jan 21, 2016 12:36:53 GMT -5
Chris at first I didn't know what you were talking about and kept checking to see that I listed 3 for each category- then I got it..very clever.
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Post by tonyc on Jan 19, 2016 20:05:52 GMT -5
UP- TREY BALL- Been positive, a bit less so last year, all along. You can't teach the size, projectability and smooth actions..still young but crossroads year
YOAN MONCADA- What he did in his adjustment year, epecially late was incredible. With his tools he now soars
LUIS BASABE- Very young and athletic, now he too takes off
Down- Nick Longhi- Lacking any outstanding tools for production type positions
Teddy Stankiewicz- Lacks outstanding or consistent stuff, don't like hits ratios, he can be had at upper levels
Bryce Brenz- Older righties lacking hit tools don't fare well at the highest level
Gems- Chris Acosta- Very overlooked. Great scouting and stuff for his age, showed well toward the end Rondel Raudes- Very impressive stuff at a young age, again Yoan Aybar- Very young and athletic and lots of projection in that build as he adds muscle
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Post by tonyc on Jan 18, 2016 13:20:26 GMT -5
Glad to hear about NL DH- Sox risked Ortiz injury, and pitchers injuries hitting. Still remember in early 70's Jim Kaat off to a career year- was something like 14-2, out for the year on a base running injury. Of course an NL DH would have taken the controls away from a nitwit Darell Johnson who pinch hit for a hot throwing Jim Wiloughby in the '75 series (with Cecile Cooper who was 1-19, with two outs and none on), and my favorite Sox team ever may have won the best series ever. I am one of the exceptions, enjoy inter league only because I live in Colorado, and get to see the Sox every five years or so.
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Post by tonyc on Jan 12, 2016 20:12:14 GMT -5
Norm, in a sense it is a great and the most important mystery too. The answer lies in the fact that humans do have a degree of latitude in that the thoughts which you process in interpreting an event plays a more significant role in the internal emotions and subsequent programming you derive than the actual event itself. This was something I studied for years after coursework at the Ken Keyes center in Coosbay in your very own Oregon. He fused humanistic psychology with Buddhist principles into a day to day practice of positive phrases, and internal deep examination into thoughts and emotions to create positive interventions. His Handbook to Higher Consciousness is still relevant today. A contemporary spiritual philosopher, Eckart Tolle speaks eloquently on this topic, as did Alan Watts years ago.
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Post by tonyc on Jan 3, 2016 21:54:22 GMT -5
Thanks for great work as always Eric. I remember Grich and Whitaker as worthy candidates, and am surprised about Nettles being that above Evans. I wonder what your opinion would be in this context about a post I made over a year ago. I'd noticed that Yaz (who was my favorite player) seemed over-rewarded by WAR by having certainly a great career, but by augmenting his WAR numbers by putting in many "extra" years which were ok to solid, but not elite. Wheras a player who is brilliant at the highest level- say a Koufax- would be penalized. WAR seems a good metric for player value, but at the elite HOF level seems to over-reward those who "show up" for extra long, but not elite service. Opinions?
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Post by tonyc on Dec 30, 2015 10:52:35 GMT -5
Nice coverage and opinions, as usual Oregon. Neither of these would probably happen, but best punishment for both Chapman, and the Yankees would be, if he's not suspended for the year, take him out for the last 49 games, and the postseason. That way the Yankees lose him to free agency and can't benefit as much this year, or trade him. By the way, I have fond memories of tenting up At Mt. Hood, spending several days exploring the coast- my favorite anywhere, and I'm a cold water swimmer- soaking at Breitenbush, and taking a one month workshop at the Ken Keyes Center in Coos bay (human relations/consciousness workshops) in the 80's. Your state, along with Washington and mine in Colorado are my favorite lower 48 for hiking/nature. It'll be interesting when visiting my former home, NY, this summer, to get my in laws take on this affair- both passionate Yankee fans and quite ethical attorneys, one a former assistant DA. Hopefully some women's groups in NY will scream for boycotts, and then when he goes free nobody would sign him, but that wouldn't be the case.
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Post by tonyc on Dec 29, 2015 12:35:26 GMT -5
When things looked bad- as they did for that series against the Angels, and early on in that game, I sometimes just taped the game and left..went boogie boarding in Rockaway beach N.Y. Came back hours later and on my way home was shocked to see from a bar T.V. , the game was still going on. Went rushing home, don't remember if I saw the homer itself live or on replay but caught the end of the game- amazing comeback and game. I thought it was even better than the famous one, I watched, with the Mets against the Astros in extra innnings, which I was pulling like crazy for the Astros, knowing that if they won, not only would the powerhouse Mets be eliminated, but Houston would have exhausted, and poorly rotated both Nolan Ryan and their split balling ace, leaving Boston a cakewalk for the World Series. After the Mets won, even though I was heartbroken, the raucous celebration in NY- which way outdid any jubilation for the Yankees during their 70's dynasty- was a slight salve. There was a traffic jam at the Holland tunnel with a guy sitting on the hood of his slowly moving car playing a Saxophone. I never had the dislike for the Mets that I did for the Yankees, and as a kid, was a fan in '69 and celebrated their incredible stretch run and World Series, even though Boston had my heart.
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Post by tonyc on Dec 27, 2015 15:10:13 GMT -5
Great thread! Fenway, I know Luis had the stinker year in '77 (when they introduced a juiced up ball) but I feel he was close enough to great: he pitched 8 years, more than any other team with the Redsox, and despite performing in his age 31-37 seasons had a four year stretch of 85 complete games, along with well below league average eras. In the post season he 3 hit shutout the A's dynasty team, then pitched close to 3 cgs in the World Series against one of the greatest hitting teams ever, winning 2, including a 170 pitch All guts performance. He was one of the only modern pitchers ever to author 2 sub 2.00 seasons. He was a hall of farmer- comparable to Don Drysdale and others. He kept the clubhouse together with his leadership and humor. Most of all, not only were his antics/unique deliveries a Pedro type thrill, but he until that point was more unconditionally loved- regardless of up or down days- by the fans than any other player in Redsox history.
Regarding comparison, thanks sox champs for your points about the 75 and 86 teams- which were better than they appeared- 75 had Fisk out half the year- he caught gold glove level, hit over .330 with power. 86 had a brilliant Bruce Hurst and other pitchers injured. The two teams nearly beat two of the best teams in National League history (I believe about 109 and 108 wins or so respectively). Last, while Rice being out clearly cost 75, less talked about is that in 86 Tom Seaver, just acquired, was their best pitcher down the stretch other than Clemens. He was hurt, replaced in the World Series by Nipper and Boyd who got blasted- don't you think it likely he would've stepped up against his longtime Mets?
Great comments Eric on movies and The Natural, book was better. I do however love Altered States as a sci-fi thriller with fascinating speculation on human consciousness and beautiful special effects, despite the author's bitterness at his work being "altered".
I don't like more current "time bias", therefore don't think Tek rates a retirement number, but Jimmy Foxx was one of the greatest righty hitters ever and was deserving as is Dewey, Tiant, Cy Young. Despite my name, Tony C is a tough call.
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Post by tonyc on Dec 24, 2015 0:28:50 GMT -5
He could CONTROL an at-bat, not just hit mistakes, like nobody in our lifetime. Williams was probably one of the few in history who could surpass him- just keep fouling it off, then hit a line drive every time. Had great power in batting practice too, but didn't want to sacrifice the on base. Also great quickness as a third baseman, and I believe Boggs won a gold glove once with the Yankees- though by his third season was really good. (My favorite story about Ted Williams control- a fan in the left field seats was nasty, and by the 6th inning or so Ted had it- he hit 16 consecutive line drive fouls within 10 feet of the fan!)
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